Blocking Bag

[mbrown2097]

What is an acceptable method for the runner to handle the below situation without treading on MC grounds?  When I played, he'd be in jeopardy of a knee injury, but in today's kinder gentler baseball what is acceptable?

[Thunderheads]

.......exactly what he's doing in the photo I'd think.........

[johnnyg08]

These are kids...there's so much wrong w/ how the defender is playing this other than blocking the base w/ the ball.

 

Let's keep it simple and say that the throw pulled his glove in the direction of a high tag.  

[mbrown2097]

I guess what I am getting at is that I don't expect the runner to just concede the out just because a base gets blocked.  I'd expect the next runner to be way more aggressive about getting to the base.  At what point does it cross the line and get MC?  High cleat? High slide?  I know this is judgment but looking for discussion to help me with clarity on this. 

[Thunderheads]

I guess what I am getting at is that I don't expect the runner to just concede the out just because a base gets blocked.  I'd expect the next runner to be way more aggressive about getting to the base.  At what point does it cross the line and get MC?  High cleat? High slide?  I know this is judgment but looking for discussion to help me with clarity on this. 

I'm pretty sure you'll be convinced when you see MC.   Your photo would NOT  be MC obviously....unless he pops up and brings both arms at him like an upper cut!

[johnnyg08]

I guess what I am getting at is that I don't expect the runner to just concede the out just because a base gets blocked.  I'd expect the next runner to be way more aggressive about getting to the base.  At what point does it cross the line and get MC?  High cleat? High slide?  I know this is judgment but looking for discussion to help me with clarity on this. 

 

At many levels if a runner is out by a lot he's out.  It's much, much better sportsmanship...teach your guys to pick an choose when they're going to go in hard.

[UmpJeff]

I've got the runner safe.  The runner's foot is in direct contact with the fielder's foot which is in direct contact with the base.  So, I'm ruling the runner indirectly in contact with the base...ergo, he's safe!

 

(of course, I'm kidding...)

 

I cringe when I get to a diamond and see bases like that...sunken almost to dirt level.  It's a shame that a lot of these fields have bases like this. 

 

I don't have MC on this play at all...

[Majordave]

Base isn't completely blocked in that photo. Just the part the runner is attempting to touch. The other half, or more, of the bag is open. Timing, timing, timing. He's out! I wouldn't find any MC for this foot placement by runner unless he starts kicking and slashing at the foot/ankle/shin/knee. Fielder puts his foot there at his own peril. If he's injured by a normal effort slide then so be it. Baseball is (still) a contact sport. At least the last time I checked.

[johnnyg08]

Base isn't completely blocked in that photo. Just the part the runner is attempting to touch. The other half, or more, of the bag is open. Timing, timing, timing. He's out! I wouldn't find any MC for this foot placement by runner unless he starts kicking and slashing at the foot/ankle/shin/knee. Fielder puts his foot there at his own peril. If he's injured by a normal effort slide then so be it. Baseball is (still) a contact sport. At least the last time I checked.

 

Sure it is, but I think the OP wants some sort of MC loophole

[mbrown2097]

Background:

So I originally called this kid safe. (was too quick on the call)  Then noticed him jockeying to get his foot on the bag and changed call to out.  Throw was letter high but somewhat towards 2nd.  Runner was at fielders foot as ball reached the fielder so he would have been safe if not for the block.  No obstruction as I believe the block occurred at the instant he received the ball. (dang close)

[mbrown2097]

I know the pic is not MC, but I'd expect the next runner in that situation to potentially get an MC.  That what I am trying to get a better grip on.  What is reasonable of those base runners following this play.

[johnnyg08]

Not much more than that.  In FED he has to slide to not through the base.  

 

The rule book does not define each instance of MC.  There is wide latitude for judgment.  

 

The rule book does define a legal slide.  

 

I think in many cases, as others have stated, you will know it when you see it.

[Majordave]

I'll go one step further. I wouldn't have MC for a slide that resulted in fielder having shoe/foot pierced by a spike of the runner or a sprained or broken ankle from contact by runner's foot unless I saw runner slashing or kicking or intentionally driving his own foot through the fielder's foot or leg by drawing back and thrusting through as he comes into contact with fielder.

I would find MC if the runner's initial contact with fielder's foot/leg was above the ankle though.

Fielder puts his foot there at his own peril.

Tough way to learn not to but.......it is a contact sport.

[mbrown2097]

That's what I was after.   So what I am getting is that the mechanics of the slide still need to be normal but don't flinch if the fielder has a negative outcome.

[Majordave]

That works for me. Bad positioning usually gets bad results.......as does bad timing....for someone.

[noumpere]

Somewhere along the line, I think FED defined MC as "intent to injure."

[johnnyg08]

Somewhere along the line, I think FED defined MC as "intent to injure."

 

 

Malicious contains the word "malice" which mean: "Malice is a legal term referring to a party's intention to do injury to another party. Malice is either expressed or implied."

[Rich Ives]

I'll go one step further. I wouldn't have MC for a slide that resulted in fielder having shoe/foot pierced by a spike of the runner or a sprained or broken ankle from contact by runner's foot unless I saw runner slashing or kicking or intentionally driving his own foot through the fielder's foot or leg by drawing back and thrusting through as he comes into contact with fielder.

I would find MC if the runner's initial contact with fielder's foot/leg was above the ankle though.

Fielder puts his foot there at his own peril.

Tough way to learn not to but.......it is a contact sport.

 

Given that a slide is only illegal if the contact is above the knee (as the fielder us standing) this might not be a good criteria to use.

 

And let's not overlook that the fielder has the ball so blocking the base is legal. Painful perhaps sometimes, but legal.

[ElkOil]

I guess what I am getting at is that I don't expect the runner to just concede the out just because a base gets blocked. 

 

Why not?  The runner has the option to give up if an obvious out is imminent, and many times that's the advisable thing to do.  Some contact is part of the game, as is the case in your photo, but not all contact is (MC not withstanding).  There's no shame in teaching a player at any level to concede the out under certain circumstances.

[johnnyg08]

Why not?  The runner has the option to give up if an obvious out is imminent, and many times that's the advisable thing to do. There's no shame in teaching a player at any level to concede the out under certain circumstances.

This!! ^^^^^

[ricka56]

I know the pic is not MC, but I'd expect the next runner in that situation to potentially get an MC.  That what I am trying to get a better grip on.  What is reasonable of those base runners following this play.

 

The fielder did nothing to deserve any retribution. He had the ball, blocked the base and put the tag on. Any butt-hurt feeling on the offense's part is unreasonable. That said, you being on-guard for any MC (intent to injure) for following plays might be prudent.

[mbrown2097]

I guess I don't get some of this still.  Not an easy out nor obvious in this play.  He was safe sans the block of the base.  I suppose that is I why I would expect the runner to not give up.  I agree in an obvious situation, no reason to be overly aggressive to the bag. 

 

On edit:  I'm probably picking nits.  Nothing to see here..  Feel free to move on.

[maven]

I'm pretty sure his shoelace was on touching the base.

[ElkOil]

I guess I don't get some of this still.  Not an easy out nor obvious in this play.  He was safe sans the block of the base.  I suppose that is I why I would expect the runner to not give up.  I agree in an obvious situation, no reason to be overly aggressive to the bag. 

 

On edit:  I'm probably picking nits.  Nothing to see here..  Feel free to move on.

 

I think you bring up a good point -- especially for some of us newer umps.  Saying he would have been safe if only the player wasn't blocking the bag is a bit like saying things like "it would have been a home run if only it was fair" or "he would have caught the ball if only he didn't drop it."  Those may be true statements, but ultimately vaporous because the play only develops one way, and that's what we all have to work with.  I guess my point is that in fluid situations, the players may be more aggressive than others, particularly because they tell themselves the "If only..." statements.  "If only that guy's foot wasn't in the way, I could get in there" and they try a little harder to overcome that obstacle.  We have to be alert to see OBS or MC when the situations arise and in the end, make the very subjective call and prepare to explain it to whichever coach gets to us first!

[Rich Ives]

I guess I don't get some of this still.  Not an easy out nor obvious in this play.  He was safe sans the block of the base.  I suppose that is I why I would expect the runner to not give up.  I agree in an obvious situation, no reason to be overly aggressive to the bag. 

 

On edit:  I'm probably picking nits.  Nothing to see here..  Feel free to move on.

 

Blocking is legal if the fielder has the ball - as he does in the picture. Why is this difficult?