Batting out of order question

[HammerPIAA]

Guys, hoping to get some opinions on how you would handle this one..........OBR rules

 

14U tournament championship game last night, 3rd inning, tie game.  Im keeping score on Gamechanger for my son's team (in this scenario, we are the defensive team).

 

Lead off batter of the inning ("Abel") hits first pitch for a single up the middle.  Next hitter ("Baker") takes first pitch for a ball, Abel steals second.

 

I then realize because of uniform numbers something wasnt adding up, its now apparent that the lineup card the other team provided us with before the game had Baker batting before Abel in the lineup.  I immediately inform our coach and he requests time to discuss with the PU.  (It should be noted that there was no formal exchange of lineup cards by the PU during pre-game conference - only coaches exchanged lineups - PU did not have copies of cards).  We compare books and although the other team has the lineup correct (Abel before Baker) in their own book, their lineup card they provided to us for whatever reason is incorrect (Baker before Abel).  Umpire said that there was clearly a mistake made by the other team, he let it go because "it was their first time through the lineup so they could just flip the 2 batters the next time through" (I almost went ballistic when I heard this reasoning)

 

First off, my question is two-fold...........did we lose the right to appeal batting out of order because a pitch had been thrown to the next batter? 2nd question depends on the answer to the 1st.  If we lose right to appeal then the point is moot..................but lets assume that either under this scenario we did not lose the right to appear or we had noticed prior to the 1st pitch thrown to the next batter and brought this up................did the PU handle the situation correctly?  I dont believe he did.  And, lastly, under OBR, a successful appeal would have caused the proper batter to be declared out, but since the 2 players flip flopped positions in the order, how would you rule?

[Radwaste50]

Reasoning is suspect because how can it be the first time through in the third inning

No line ups were provided to the umpire so I would go with the home team book and say BOO not in effect and have visitors correct book to match home team book. Play ball

[noumpere]

First off, my question is two-fold...........did we lose the right to appeal batting out of order because a pitch had been thrown to the next batter? 2nd question depends on the answer to the 1st.  If we lose right to appeal then the point is moot..................but lets assume that either under this scenario we did not lose the right to appear or we had noticed prior to the 1st pitch thrown to the next batter and brought this up................did the PU handle the situation correctly?  I dont believe he did.  And, lastly, under OBR, a successful appeal would have caused the proper batter to be declared out, but since the 2 players flip flopped positions in the order, how would you rule?

1) You didn't  lose the right to appeal, but the effect might not be what you wanted.  Since a pitch had been thrown to Baker, Abel's bat was legitimized.  So, the batter after Abel ("Charlie" in your book) would come to the plate and assume Baker's count.  Abel stays at second.

 

1a) If you had appealed before the pitch to Baker, then Baker (MYTAB) would be out, Abel would be removed from base and the batter following Baker would bat -- that's Abel, again.

 

2) Batting out of order once (or twice, or three times ...) does not make that the correct order.  They should follow the correct order the next time, or be subject to the penalties.

 

Given that PU never got line-up cards, it's tough to rule on BOO.  He needs to decide which is the official line-up.  Usually, that's the home team.  In this instance, I would be looking to see if there was evidence that the book had been changed (cross outs, erasure marks, etc.)

[grayhawk]

I had a game a couple of weeks ago where the coaches swapped lineups but said for me not to worry about it - that I didn't need a copy.  I said that was fine (it's only fall ball), but don't come to me with any BOO situations.  

[HammerPIAA]

@noumpere - I agree with everything you've indicated, unfortunately we were the visiting team (determined by seed) and therefore the home book would "rule".  We did not appeal in time to get an out.  I just wasnt really happy with the explanation/reasoning the PU gave.  @grayhawk - as it relates to the above.........in this particular case the PU did not ask for lineup cards.  We exchanged them after ground rules/pre-game conference.

[grayhawk]

What kind of tournament was this?  Hard to believe an umpire in any kind of game that matters wouldn't require both teams to present him their lineup cards at the plate meeting.

[HammerPIAA]

It was a local tournament - and the championship game to boot, and while I will acknowledge that in these tournaments, my experience has been that the umpires generally do NOT ask for lineup cards, I agree that for the title game it should have been requested.  It was late and it was cold and at times my feeling was that they just wanted to get out of there and get home.........................

[Larry in TN]

I agree with everything you've indicated, unfortunately we were the visiting team (determined by seed) and therefore the home book would "rule".  We did not appeal in time to get an out.  I just wasnt really happy with the explanation/reasoning the PU gave.  @grayhawk - as it relates to the above.........in this particular case the PU did not ask for lineup cards.  We exchanged them after ground rules/pre-game conference.

 

You appealed both too late AND too early.

 

Assume the "official" lineup card said:

 

1. Baker

2. Abel

3. Charlie

 

Abel bats first and reaches base.

 

--Before another pitch is thrown, or play made, you can successfully appeal.  Baker would be out, Abel removed from the bases, and Abel would be the next proper batter.

 

You didn't notice it until BAKER had taken a pitch.  STAY QUIET!  Wait for Baker's plate-appearance to end.  At this point you have the choice of appealing or waiting.  If Baker got a hit then appeal and CHARLIE is out, because CHARLIE, not BAKER, became the next proper batter after Abel's P-A was legitimized.

 

If BAKER was put-out then you can still choose to appeal, depending on who you want to be the next proper batter.  i.e. not letting their slugger bat again.  If BAKER's appearence is legitimized then ABEL would be the next proper batter and it's a pretty good bet he won't know that.

 

NEVER appeal in the middle of a plate-appearance as the error, if any, will be corrected and no penalty will be applied.  Go over this with your manager before the season, or tournament, starts so that you'll both be on the same page in such a situation.  Timing of the appeal is critical.  As scorer, I always ensure that I have the original copy of the other team's official lineup, as well as our own, as our league doesn't give a copy to the umpire, either.  I keep it ready to produce if an appeal occurs.  

[HammerPIAA]

You are correct, I screwed that one up.................the thing was that the leadoff batter hit the first pitch for a single and by the time I had put 2 and 2 together, a pitch had been thrown to the next batter and knowing something was wrong I alerted our coach immediately - didnt have the time to go through the logic as you did above................too much was happening and too quickly.................... 

[Larry in TN]

didnt have the time to go through the logic as you did above................too much was happening and too quickly.................... 

 

You have to be prepared for this ahead of time.  As a scorer, we have to know how you'll handle it before it happens and have already agreed with the manager how you will get the information to him.  As you noted, it just happens too fast to figure it out in real time.  Best bet is to have a signal that you need him to call time with him willing to do so before he knows why you want him to call it.

 

My problem, at the LL level, is getting a manager who's interested in working this out ahead of time.  They don't think it'll happen and/or think that they'll "know" what to do when it does.

[MPLSMatt]

It was a local tournament - and the championship game to boot, and while I will acknowledge that in these tournaments, my experience has been that the umpires generally do NOT ask for lineup cards, I agree that for the title game it should have been requested.  It was late and it was cold and at times my feeling was that they just wanted to get out of there and get home.........................

 

This comment is BS.  In travel ball in my neck of the woods, lineups are generally not exchanged until the VFW level.  If you ask for them (or insist on them) you are labeled a Red Ass and coaches complain because they don't have copies.  @HammerPIAA you admit that the exchange of lineups isn't commonly done, yet now that there's a problem it's a case of the umpire "just wanting to get out of there?"  If it hasn't been done all tourney, why do it during the championship?  You've made the case for why leagues need to require that coaches be giving umpires lineups (and using the carbon books, not "exchanging books") but if the coaches don't provide them, and leagues don't require them, I don't think it's fair to pin it on the umpire.  Errors like this are somewhat common (one or two per season) and without an official book, there isn't an easy answer for the umpire.  Given the situation, it doesn't sound like the umpire's solution of "fix it" warrants you "just about going ballistic" over 14U fall ball baseball.  That may have been the incorrect ruling (and I say "if" because there isn't really a clear rule for this situation so the umpire has to "wing it" to an extent), but if it truly was the first time through and no advantage was gained (again, no eraser marks or funny business), it seems like the sportsmanlike thing to do would just be to switch your book to match the team's intended line up instead of fishing for a free out. 

 

Umpires need to know the rule, and I am as critical of lazy and uninformed umps as anyone - but this sounds like a situation where the umpire handled himself pretty well.  People get competitive out there but perspective is important.  

 

Also, FWIW, the explanations above about how to handle the situation correctly after one pitch (assuming that it was actually a BOO situation) are accurate, so there's no out to be had here no matter how you view the situation.