Catcher's balk

[Sayhey]

I am starting a new thread on this one.

There is a thread from 2012. It has an error in it in my opinion. Had this in a varsity high school game last night. R-3 is stealing home. Pitcher had time to step off rubber and make a "throw" to home but he does not. He makes a "pitch" to home which is caught in front of home plate. The batter was in the box and could have bunted or swung at the pitch. The batter was prevented from doing either when the catcher jumped out in front of home plate and caught the pitch.

I was behind the plate. My first word was time, followed by the phrase,"that's illegal".

I awarded R-3 home and then awarded the batter first base. If there had been other runners I would have given them a base as well. I studied this when I got home. Jaska/Roder calls it catcher's interference and uses the tip of the plate as a demarcation line(fair territory). Is there a better way to do this? Should I say,"time. That's a balk.".

How do you like "that's illegal"? Should R-3 be awarded home and then the batter first or visa versa? The error that I saw in the 2012 post was about a batter stepping out of the box and completely giving up any opportunity to swing or bunt. Interference is not possible if the batter steps out of the box. No one is being interfered with. How can you have interference with no batter? I believe the catcher can step up and catch the pitch in fair territory if the batter gives up

[ALStripes17]

I am starting a new thread on this one.

There is a thread from 2012. It has an error in it in my opinion. Had this in a varsity high school game last night. R-3 is stealing home. Pitcher had time to step off rubber and make a "throw" to home but he does not. He makes a "pitch" to home which is caught in front of home plate. The batter was in the box and could have bunted or swung at the pitch. The batter was prevented from doing either when the catcher jumped out in front of home plate and caught the pitch.

I was behind the plate. My first word was time, followed by the phrase,"that's illegal".

I awarded R-3 home and then awarded the batter first base. If there had been other runners I would have given them a base as well. I studied this when I got home. Jaska/Roder calls it catcher's interference and uses the tip of the plate as a demarcation line(fair territory). Is there a better way to do this? Should I say,"time. That's a balk.".

How do you like "that's illegal"? Should R-3 be awarded home and then the batter first or visa versa? The error that I saw in the 2012 post was about a batter stepping out of the box and completely giving up any opportunity to swing or bunt. Interference is not possible if the batter steps out of the box. No one is being interfered with. How can you have interference with no batter? I believe the catcher can step up and catch the pitch in fair territory if the batter gives up

A catcher's balk in OBR was adopted mainly during IBB so the catcher could not come 15 ft up the baseline to receive "pitches." If the catcher stays in his box until the pitch is thrown and the batter does not offer or get obstructed in any way, I have a legal play.

I have a feeling someone on here will have a cite to dispute my thoughts haha

[Sayhey]

My apologies. I just read D62 post from Nov. 20 2010. Read it carefully this time. He never mentions the. Catcher catching a pitch in fair territory or the tip of the plate forward. He just had a pitch and a steal of home and a play at home after the batter stepped it of the box.

My scenario was a caught pitch in front of home plate. Catcher interference and a balk on the pitcher. Penalty and base awards. Just wondered if my mechanic was solid

[Sayhey]

Al Stripes 17, what is I.B.B and I will be the first one to disagree with you if I understand you correctly. In my opinion the act of catching the pitch at the tip of home plate and forward is in itself catcher interference. In my case it was very easy to make the call since my catcher caught the pitch3 feet out in front of the front edge of the plate I can see where a pitch caught on top of the plate would be a tougher call and controversial

Your thoughts?

[Mad Mike]

2014 BRD, Section 307 INTERFERENCE BY:CATCHER: CREATES BALK DURING: SQUEEZE OR STEAL OF HOME. (Keep in mind NFHS butcher's the terms catcher's obstruction vs. catcher's interference. The change in terminology is yet another one of the FED's dismal ideas as we discuss this OP.)

 

FED: Whenever the catcher or any other defensive player obstructs the batter, if the penalty is not ignored, the batter is awarded first, and runners advancing on the pitch or forced also receive one base. (Added) Runners who are moving on the pitch keep their advance bases if the catcher's obstruction penalty is enforced. (8-1-1e, 8-1-1e-1; 8.1.1L; 8.3.1 b and c)

 

Play 165-307: FED Only: R3, R2. R3 breaks from third on an attempted suicide squeeze play. As B1 attempts to bunt, F2 touches the tip of the bat or steps across home plate, catches the ball, and tags out R3. R2 remained on second. RULING: Catcher obstruction. The umpire awards B1 first base and R3 home. Since R2 was not attempting to steal nor was he forced, he remains on second. (Adapted from FED casebook 8.3.1b)

 

(Added) Note 292: In NCAA/OBR since it was a squeeze, the umpire will call a balk as well as catcher interference: R3 scores, B1 goes to first, R2 is awarded third.

 

NCAA: When any defensive player interferes with the batter during a squeeze or steal of home, the pitcher is charged with a balk and the catcher with interference. The runner scores, the batter is awarded first, and all other runners advance one base. (8-2e-2 Ex; 8-3p PEN)

 

(Added) During catcher interference: Concerning the disposition of a runner attempting to steal an occupied base: no provision. Treat as in OBR.

 

OBR: Same as NCAA (6.08c CMT 5)

 

Wendlestedt weighs in with several interpretations: 

 

OFF INTERP 314-307: If the penalty for catcher's interference is enforced, runners who were attempting a legitimate steal on the play will be awarded the base they were attempting to take. A "legitimate steal" attempt does not include a play situation where one runner is attempting to steal a base already occupied by another runner if that other runner is not attempting to steal as well.

 

*******

So, as to your first question, should I say, "Time, that's a balk."? If this is FED, this is treated as "catcher's obstruction". This would be a delayed dead ball, so you would not kill it immediately and you would announce, "That's obstruction". If it is NCAA or OBR, you would say "That's a balk" and let any initial play take place before killing it and making awards.

 

As to your second question, should R3 be awarded home and the batter first? Since you have the catcher stepping across home plate to grab the pitch you would make the awards as 

 

Play 166-307: R3, R2. OBR. On the pitch R2 breaks for third, stealing an occupied base. The catcher interferes with B1's swing, and the batter fouls off the pitch. RULING: R3 scores, B1 goes to first. R2 remains at second: It was not a legitimate steal attempt.

 

OFF INTERP 315-307: In one instance only, with a runner on third base attempting to steal home plate and a runner on second who remains at second base, if the batter is interfered with in his attempt to hit the pitch, the runner from second will also be awarded on base on a balk. [7.07]

 

Catcher obstruction with a batter's swing has a much different penalty than catcher obstruction of the batter/runner. As stated before the terminology stinks. However, there is a good definition in BRD Section 308 on Catcher Interference that will answer your last question about whether interference takes place if the batter "gives up".

 

Section 308: INTERFERENCE BY: CATCHER: DEFINITION

 

FED: Catcher obstruction (called "interference" in NCAA/OBR) occurs where the catcher: 1) touches the batter's bat, 2) pushes the batter to reach the pitch, 3) steps on or across home plate to reach the pitch (8-3-1c).

 

NCAA: Same as FED 8-3-1c. (8-2) EXCEPT: Pushing the batter or stepping on/across the plate is listed as an infraction only on a steal/squeeze play at home. (8-3p).

 

OBR: Same as NCAA (7.07)

 

 

Thanks for asking this question. It really made me get into the BRD! Do you guys agree that in this case, it is still interference if the catcher steps across the plate to grab the pitch, even if the batter "gives up" and/or does not swing the bat?

[grayhawk]

In Fed, it's catcher's obstruction, and that's what you should call when you see the catcher receive the pitch on or in front of the plate.  "That's obstruction!  Time!"  Walk out in front of the plate.  "That's catcher's obstruction!  You, score!  You, first base!"

 

R3 scores.  Batter is awarded first and all runners who were stealing get to keep their advance base.  It's not a balk in Fed.

 

I have a feeling Mad Mike covered this above, but wanted to give you the Reader's Digest version.

[ALStripes17]

2014 BRD, Section 307 INTERFERENCE BY:CATCHER: CREATES BALK DURING: SQUEEZE OR STEAL OF HOME. (Keep in mind NFHS butcher's the terms catcher's obstruction vs. catcher's interference. The change in terminology is yet another one of the FED's dismal ideas as we discuss this OP.)

FED: Whenever the catcher or any other defensive player obstructs the batter, if the penalty is not ignored, the batter is awarded first, and runners advancing on the pitch or forced also receive one base. (Added) Runners who are moving on the pitch keep their advance bases if the catcher's obstruction penalty is enforced. (8-1-1e, 8-1-1e-1; 8.1.1L; 8.3.1 b and c)

Play 165-307: FED Only: R3, R2. R3 breaks from third on an attempted suicide squeeze play. As B1 attempts to bunt, F2 touches the tip of the bat or steps across home plate, catches the ball, and tags out R3. R2 remained on second. RULING: Catcher obstruction. The umpire awards B1 first base and R3 home. Since R2 was not attempting to steal nor was he forced, he remains on second. (Adapted from FED casebook 8.3.1b)

(Added) Note 292: In NCAA/OBR since it was a squeeze, the umpire will call a balk as well as catcher interference: R3 scores, B1 goes to first, R2 is awarded third.

NCAA: When any defensive player interferes with the batter during a squeeze or steal of home, the pitcher is charged with a balk and the catcher with interference. The runner scores, the batter is awarded first, and all other runners advance one base. (8-2e-2 Ex; 8-3p PEN)

(Added) During catcher interference: Concerning the disposition of a runner attempting to steal an occupied base: no provision. Treat as in OBR.

OBR: Same as NCAA (6.08c CMT 5)

Wendlestedt weighs in with several interpretations:

OFF INTERP 314-307: If the penalty for catcher's interference is enforced, runners who were attempting a legitimate steal on the play will be awarded the base they were attempting to take. A "legitimate steal" attempt does not include a play situation where one runner is attempting to steal a base already occupied by another runner if that other runner is not attempting to steal as well.

*******

So, as to your first question, should I say, "Time, that's a balk."? If this is FED, this is treated as "catcher's obstruction". This would be a delayed dead ball, so you would not kill it immediately and you would announce, "That's obstruction". If it is NCAA or OBR, you would say "That's a balk" and let any initial play take place before killing it and making awards.

As to your second question, should R3 be awarded home and the batter first? Since you have the catcher stepping across home plate to grab the pitch you would make the awards as

Play 166-307: R3, R2. OBR. On the pitch R2 breaks for third, stealing an occupied base. The catcher interferes with B1's swing, and the batter fouls off the pitch. RULING: R3 scores, B1 goes to first. R2 remains at second: It was not a legitimate steal attempt.

OFF INTERP 315-307: In one instance only, with a runner on third base attempting to steal home plate and a runner on second who remains at second base, if the batter is interfered with in his attempt to hit the pitch, the runner from second will also be awarded on base on a balk. [7.07]

Catcher obstruction with a batter's swing has a much different penalty than catcher obstruction of the batter/runner. As stated before the terminology stinks. However, there is a good definition in BRD Section 308 on Catcher Interference that will answer your last question about whether interference takes place if the batter "gives up".

Section 308: INTERFERENCE BY: CATCHER: DEFINITION

FED: Catcher obstruction (called "interference" in NCAA/OBR) occurs where the catcher: 1) touches the batter's bat, 2) pushes the batter to reach the pitch, 3) steps on or across home plate to reach the pitch (8-3-1c).

NCAA: Same as FED 8-3-1c. (8-2) EXCEPT: Pushing the batter or stepping on/across the plate is listed as an infraction only on a steal/squeeze play at home. (8-3p).

OBR: Same as NCAA (7.07)

Thanks for asking this question. It really made me get into the BRD! Do you guys agree that in this case, it is still interference if the catcher steps across the plate to grab the pitch, even if the batter "gives up" and/or does not swing the bat?

Thanks for the FED cite! I agree that it is CI (CO in FED) if catcher steps on or across home plate.

Also, IBB means intentional base on balls

[JaxRolo]

Don't say "That illegal"

It's not a balk. At least not in FED. It's CO like @grayhawk said.

If it was a balk you wouldn't be able to award the Batter first.

[sdix00]

Don't say "That illegal"

It's not a balk. At least not in FED. It's CO like @grayhawk said.

If it was a balk you wouldn't be able to award the Batter first.

 

Maybe not in FED.  But it is a balk in OBR and the Batter gets 1B.   It's both CI and a balk in OBR. 

 

Maybe I missed what you are trying to say because I know you know that.   So I am only clarifying for the thread. 

[JaxRolo]

Don't say "That illegal"

It's not a balk. At least not in FED. It's CO like @grayhawk said.

If it was a balk you wouldn't be able to award the Batter first.

Maybe not in FED. But it is a balk in OBR and the Batter gets 1B. It's both CI and a balk in OBR.

Maybe I missed what you are trying to say because I know you know that. So I am only clarifying for the thread.

You know I'm Cuban. Words don't always come out right.

That's my excuse anyway! lol

[Sayhey]

Thanks Mad Mike. You put a lot of effort into your answer. I appreciate it. Also, I appreciate your attitude toward Fed. Rules. They suck in some cases. Jaska/Roder says catcher interference is impossible if the batter completely gives up his opportunity to bunt or swing. Stepping out of the box is certainly giving up your opportunity to hit

I enjoy wrestling with these rules. Thanks for your time.

[Jocko]

Let's dive deeper. Fed rules. It's a legal pitch. And a legal pitch is either a ball or a strike. But wait......the ball hasn't crossed the foul line or the plate........what is it? :

[Dash Riprock]

Let's dive deeper. Fed rules. It's a legal pitch. And a legal pitch is either a ball or a strike. But wait......the ball hasn't crossed the foul line or the plate........what is it? :

Obstruction.

[Jocko]

@Dash Riprock - party pooper

[JHSump]

Here is a link to a UE post showing this in action, in video.  (And, there is extra fun later in the game, again, in the video.)

 

http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/28863-another-brawl/