C.I. - placement of runners

[stl_ump]

OBR - R2

 

R2 is stealing 3rd when I have C.I. Ball is hit anyway but it results in an out a 1st.  R2 contines on to home safely.

 

Coach gets a choice, right?

 

He can have the out and the run scores or he can have his player on first and R2 would be at ????  

 

Not sure if R2 should be at 3rd or where he was at TOP.

 

Thanks

 

[UmpJM]

Since R3 was "attempting to advance" on the pitch, he keeps 3B if the coach chooses the

penalty.

 

Do you offer the choice, or does the coach have to ask?

 

JM

[stl_ump]

I believe he's supposed to know.

[UmpJM]

What level?

 

JM

[stl_ump]

What level?

 

JM

It was 10u so I told him he got a choice...  Pretty much any Rec ball team will need to be told.

[CricketChapman]

I don't think you (the umpire) can go wrong here.  I do not believe there is anything illegal/protestable about not "giving" the manager the option.  By giving, I mean asking the manager for his option.

I disagree to some degree with BRD:  if I am doing a rec game or younger (12U or below) travel game, I'd probably give the option; MS/HS ball and older travel - probably not giving it.  If I did work college ball, I would certainly not give it.

In 11 years of umpiring, I've probably only had 15-20 CI calls and only one of them resulted in an option being taken - the manager initiated the option on his own.

[UmpJM]

My opinion, supported by both the BRD and J/R, is to offer the coach the choice (if there is a meaningful choice) at all non-professional levels.

 

Even at the college level. That's what I'd do.

 

JM

 

P.S. Cricket, I do not think the BRD means what you think it means...... Did you read the "note" at the end of the section? If you did, read it again. Also, Carl mis-characterizes the J/R position on the question. You would have to read #3 in the "All Amateur Codes" Appendix of the J/R to know that.

 

JM

[maven]

I agree with JM: give the coach the option.

 

And keep it as simple as possible: "Coach, you can keep the run and your batter's out at first, or we can enforce the penalty, and you'll have runners at 1B and 3B with no outs."

 

Don't explain the whole rule, or get into a bunch of hypotheticals. Just as in football, if we have a holding penalty, we don't explain the holding rule, the "grab and restrict" philosophy, the basic spot/all-but-one enforcement, or the rest of the stuff we need to know, just "2nd and 20 or 3rd and 8, coach?"

[noumpere]

Add me to the "ask all" side of this -- and then only if it's not obvious (as in the OP).  If it's clear which is better, I'll just either enforce that or phrase the question with "you want xxxx, right?"

[Replacematt]

Add me to the "ask all" side of this -- and then only if it's not obvious (as in the OP).  If it's clear which is better, I'll just either enforce that or phrase the question with "you want xxxx, right?"

If it's clear, don't even mention anything. You know what they'll take; it's just a matter of whether you give it to them automatically or after a game of 20 Questions.

[stl_ump]

 

Add me to the "ask all" side of this -- and then only if it's not obvious (as in the OP).  If it's clear which is better, I'll just either enforce that or phrase the question with "you want xxxx, right?"

If it's clear, don't even mention anything. You know what they'll take; it's just a matter of whether you give it to them automatically or after a game of 20 Questions.

 

 

Well in this case there was a choice to be made...

Runners on the corners with 1 out or 2 outs with one run scoring.

[Replacematt]

 

 

Add me to the "ask all" side of this -- and then only if it's not obvious (as in the OP).  If it's clear which is better, I'll just either enforce that or phrase the question with "you want xxxx, right?"

If it's clear, don't even mention anything. You know what they'll take; it's just a matter of whether you give it to them automatically or after a game of 20 Questions.

 

 

Well in this case there was a choice to be made...

Runners on the corners with 1 out or 2 outs with one run scoring.

 

 Yes, we know. I was referring to the bolded statement I quoted.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

Add me to the "ask all" side of this -- and then only if it's not obvious (as in the OP).  If it's clear which is better, I'll just either enforce that or phrase the question with "you want xxxx, right?"

If it's clear, don't even mention anything. You know what they'll take; it's just a matter of whether you give it to them automatically or after a game of 20 Questions.

 

 

Well in this case there was a choice to be made...

Runners on the corners with 1 out or 2 outs with one run scoring.

 

 

Doesn't say how many were out to start.   If it was none then early in a game at the top of the order I might just choose runners at the corners and no outs.  

[Replacematt]

 

 

 

Add me to the "ask all" side of this -- and then only if it's not obvious (as in the OP).  If it's clear which is better, I'll just either enforce that or phrase the question with "you want xxxx, right?"

If it's clear, don't even mention anything. You know what they'll take; it's just a matter of whether you give it to them automatically or after a game of 20 Questions.

 

 

Well in this case there was a choice to be made...

Runners on the corners with 1 out or 2 outs with one run scoring.

 

 

Doesn't say how many were out to start.   If it was none then early in a game at the top of the order I might just choose runners at the corners and no outs.  

 

 

Or, down by two in the last inning.

[CricketChapman]

P.S. Cricket, I do not think the BRD means what you think it means...... Did you read the "note" at the end of the section? If you did, read it again. Also, Carl mis-characterizes the J/R position on the question. You would have to read #3 in the "All Amateur Codes" Appendix of the J/R to know that.

 

JM

Allow me to clarify (I did read the Note before I initially posted):  I disagree with CC's position that "amateur" umpires should give the option; I am more in-line w/ the Wendelstedt and Evans camp.  However, I agree w/ CC in the sense that the younger age groups simply don't know any better and should be given the option.

Why do I generally agree with HW and JE, especially on 13U+ and MS/HS?  I believe the text of the various CO/CI rules place the impetus on the manager of the offensive side, not the umpire.

[Rich Ives]

 

P.S. Cricket, I do not think the BRD means what you think it means...... Did you read the "note" at the end of the section? If you did, read it again. Also, Carl mis-characterizes the J/R position on the question. You would have to read #3 in the "All Amateur Codes" Appendix of the J/R to know that.

 

JM

Allow me to clarify (I did read the Note before I initially posted):  I disagree with CC's position that "amateur" umpires should give the option; I am more in-line w/ the Wendelstedt and Evans camp.  However, I agree w/ CC in the sense that the younger age groups simply don't know any better and should be given the option.

Why do I generally agree with HW and JE, especially on 13U+ and MS/HS?  I believe the text of the various CO/CI rules place the impetus on the manager of the offensive side, not the umpire.

 

 

It's more about if the manager/coach should be expected to know that he has a choice. W&E are talking about the pros.  This isn't them.

[UmpJM]

Cricket,

 

I don't believe either Evans or Wendelstedt makes ANY recommendation on the question with regard to non-professional games.

 

It's more a "custom and practice" thing. At the professional level, the custom and practice is that the manager is supposed to know, and ask if he would prefer the result rather than the penalty.

 

The BRD and J/R recommendations to offer the choice seem eminently sensible to me. Are you aware of another "authority" that makes a contrary recommendation? Me neither. My "custom and practice" is to offer when there's a meaningful choice.

 

If you choose not to, you're certainly not violating any rule, but you might very well be setting yourself up for a game management situation.

 

JM

[LRZ]

Is there a drawback to giving HS and below coaches the opportunity quickly and simply? If we insist that most coaches don't know the rules, why assume they know this one?

[UmpJM]

LRZ,

 

None that I can think of.

 

JM

[Jimurray]

Is there a drawback to giving HS and below coaches the opportunity quickly and simply? If we insist that most coaches don't know the rules, why assume they know this one?

The drawback is "no good deed goes unpunished". The next time somebody has the coach you educated he will want the choice on a balk call. Actually, never mind, that is one rule they all KNOW.