Checking with partner ...

[mstaylor]

While he may have the touch, he has no responsibility for a play.

[Mr Umpire]

While he may have the touch, he has no responsibility for a play.

Not what Jim Evans's Maximizing 2 man system says. It says (and I don't have it with me but I looked at it after this thread came up) that PU watches the touch of HP as he is going to 3B for any play there. Maybe I misread it and can't verify it now.

I would agree with you b/c of the amount of time a play could happen and PU would need to get back to the plate on an overthrow. But, that is what his book says.

[mstaylor]

I don't know what his book says but a first to third with the ball in the infield, the BU has it all. With the ball in the outfield, the PU has the play at third. There is no way the PU can cover the play at third and the ball out of play behind first. The PU has to have the ball through or over the fence on an overthrow. The BU can not cover that ball, he can bounce back and get a play at third.

[coadyadams74]

I was doing an intense varsity contest; I was BU. Top 7, visitng team down a run with 1st and 3rd ... 2 out. Grounder to SS who throws in the dirt to first. One bouncer. Almost a banger, but would have (hopefully) received no guff about the call as it wasn't that close. I was ready to make the out call, but couldn't tell if he had the bag though ... lotta dust. So - before I made the call, I asked if "he had the bag". PU says "yes he did". Then I signaled out. The visiting team came unglued - ALL of them. Fans too. But, the games is over and we're walking. As we walk, the PU - who is a very respected ump in N. Illinois - says to me "you're supposed to make the call first then ask for help. If I give you information pointing to a reversal, you then reverse it." I never do it this way, and in this case - it added to the heat I received. But I think I'm right. Anyone else make the call, then ask for help? I don't believe that is the correct mechanic.

First of all, your PU should have been watching R3, not the play at 1B. Because of this, you could have thrown him under the bus; if he were watching what he should have been watching and you asked him, what would he have said? "I don't know" or "I was watching him" wouldn't look good for either of you.

No rotation on this play, wasn't a clean hit. But I would say that you should make the call then ask on appeal. In the event it is a rotation or the PU is watching R3 cross the plate you might be throwing him under the bus.

[mstaylor]

Let me ask this question. You ask the PU, he is watching the R3 and has nothing at first, what do you call on your own?

[spiritump]

Why are you looking for help?????????it is your call MAKE IT--end of story

[mazzamouth]

I was doing an intense varsity contest; I was BU. Top 7, visitng team down a run with 1st and 3rd ... 2 out. Grounder to SS who throws in the dirt to first. One bouncer. Almost a banger, but would have (hopefully) received no guff about the call as it wasn't that close. I was ready to make the out call, but couldn't tell if he had the bag though ... lotta dust. So - before I made the call, I asked if "he had the bag". PU says "yes he did". Then I signaled out. The visiting team came unglued - ALL of them. Fans too. But, the games is over and we're walking. As we walk, the PU - who is a very respected ump in N. Illinois - says to me "you're supposed to make the call first then ask for help. If I give you information pointing to a reversal, you then reverse it." I never do it this way, and in this case - it added to the heat I received. But I think I'm right. Anyone else make the call, then ask for help? I don't believe that is the correct mechanic.

First of all, your PU should have been watching R3, not the play at 1B. Because of this, you could have thrown him under the bus; if he were watching what he should have been watching and you asked him, what would he have said? "I don't know" or "I was watching him" wouldn't look good for either of you.

If the plate umpire is at the 1stBLX he can see R3 touch home and watch for the Pulled foot, swipe tag, running lane interference, like he is suppose to. if the ball get into the outfield then rotate, plus there were 2 outs.

Call what you got 1st, then if you feel you need to get help, go ask.

[mazzamouth]

I don't know what his book says but a first to third with the ball in the infield, the BU has it all. With the ball in the outfield, the PU has the play at third. There is no way the PU can cover the play at third and the ball out of play behind first. The PU has to have the ball through or over the fence on an overthrow. The BU can not cover that ball, he can bounce back and get a play at third.

well this is PU calls... with runners on base, the BU has balls thrown out of play at 1st base, PU would have balls thrown out of play at 3rd.

[mazzamouth]

Dave:

In a two man system with a R1 the BU is responsible for the force at second and then the out at first. The PU comes out toward the left side of the mound to watch for the FPSR violation at second. Then he needs to drift back toward the foul line to watch for ball out of play.

The ball that is thrown out of play becomes the responsibility of the BU.

[ukce1861]

The ball that is thrown out of play becomes the responsibility of the BU.

Based on what? Maximizing the Two Umpire System has all overthrows belonging to the PU and that's all I've ever heard. Has this changed in the Pro Schools?

[CNJUmp]

Everyone is forgetting the obvious.....runner on 1st and 3rd 2outs...ground ball in which he throws to first base....if you don't make a call right away what are you going to do let the runner from 1st keep running around the bases as you go and get help from your partner???? If you don't make a call right away...defense dosen't know wether to try and make a play on the runner from first who may now be trying to advance to 3rd! Maybe the runner stops also and dosen't try to go to third cause you haven't made a call, and then your partner says he is safe at first because of a pulled foot! Now you have a Sh%tfest on your hands! You have to make a call and after the plays completion, if the coach asks for you to get help then you can go and talk and get any and all info from your partner, but you can't punish the defense or the offense as you don't make a call immediately....

[mazzamouth]

First of all, your PU should have been watching R3, not the play at 1B. Because of this, you could have thrown him under the bus; if he were watching what he should have been watching and you asked him, what would he have said? "I don't know" or "I was watching him" wouldn't look good for either of you.

this is wrong.. watch the ball glance at the runner.. keep your eyes everlastingly on the ball right..with 2 outs there is no need to watch R3..if the PU takes the 1BLX he can see this play and the touch of R3....

[yawetag]

with 2 outs there is no need to watch R3

Um, really?

[SnareDrum]

As PU: With two out, R3 is (probably) taking off on contact so as PU I'm going to quickly fade left and be ready for any chaos since I can't assume the F6 is going to throw to first. In my line of sight, the runner is going by and I'll cover the touch at the plate and eyeball for any obstruction that may occur, and in my periphery I'll probably see F6 making the throw. After the runner crosses home, then I'm going to move my eyes to first to observe as I walk in and to the right. The play at 1st will (probably) happen AFTER my touch at home because of the actual distance the runners are covering. Just because the play at 1B isn't my "responsibility" doesn't mean that I won't watch the conclusion of the play, so I do. From where I am at this point, maybe I could see a foot pull or maybe I couldn't. But if asked by my partner what I saw, at least I could say.

As BU: If in that first split second I really couldn't tell, I'm running to the base while watching F8's foot since my eyes were already on the base anyway. As I get an angle, I'm watching that foot... watching... if moves back towards OR away from the bag it's easy enough to establish where it was and make the call. If I still can't tell or if I feel I'm taking too long, I make the call and wait for the noise from the coach. If there's noise, I call time, call my partner over and ask him what he saw.

In response to the OP, yes I would make the call then ask for help, but I'd PROBABLY wait the for the noise. The bigger the doubt, the less noise it would take.

From *PING* to the call only took 5 seconds... 10 more seconds to check with my partner if needed. A lifetime of knowing I got it right.

None of the above is in any book. But I do know that the most important call to make is the right one. Refusing to ask for help, like some mentioned, if asked on a play like that, ESPECIALLY if I had doubts, IMHO is just plain wrong and bordering on prideful, arrogant, and maybe just a little ignorant of my role within the game. (Apologies if you're insulted.) Now if I KNOW I got right, I'll just say "Coach, I had clear view and his foot was off!" If he still persists on my asking for help, I may or I may not. That'll be a HTBT.

Nowadays in the modern age of officiating as a player, coach, and official, it's refreshing to see officials in any sport huddle up and talk it out a little. Usually they'll end up getting it right, sometimes not, but at least they made the effort to put the "good of the game" above themselves and try.

[mstaylor]

Roger, if the situation is such that your partner has other responsibilities then there is no way you can even consider asking him. It has nothing to do with arogant it has to do with doing your job. Watch on TV and when umpires huddle they usually come out with the wrong call.

[dumbdumb]

Watch the good amateur umpires and the minor league umpires in a 2 man. They have to run around like a chicken with their heads cut off as the BU to get into "position" to make the call. Many times they have moved like hell to get into position for a play that never happens, but if it were to happen they were there to make the call. Now, once you are in position, you are watching the fielder's foot to see that it is on the bag and you are looking at the runners foot to see it on the bag and we are listening for the pop of the ball. If the fielder is stretching to get the ball sooner, or if he stretches because he needs to quickly catch the ball and come off the bag quickly to make another play, then it is the base umpires job to see if the fielder pulls his foot off the bag too soon. If his foot is not on the bag when the ball pops the glove then the BU should call safe-off the bag. If his foot is on the bag the runner is out. It is not the plate umpires call from behind home plate with the runner from 3rd base crossing home from 100 feet away. How can he have better judgment of whether the foot was on the bag when the ball popped the glove than the BU who is right there. There is a good possibility the plate umpire cannot hear the pop in the glove from that distance also.

How come we never have the problem of seeing the runner touch the base but we have the problem of seeing the 1st baseman touching the bag. We are never straight-lined or whatever terms you want to come up when seeing the runner touch the base, but we are straight-lined with the 1st baseman touching the base? What happens on replay if you were right as the base umpire and the plate umpire was wrong? It just seems like too many plays are being asked for help so the coach does not give you a bad score in areas where coaches scores count. In other words umpires who see the play and make the call concerning the foot on the bag or not (just like making the bang bang call itself) and do not get help if the coach asks, when(edited) you clearly saw the call, get a lower score than the guy who goes for (edited) help when help is not needed. There is no need to pacify the coach. If they give you bad scores for not getting help it is a crying shame. You are throwing all the responsibility and crap on your partner who will now get a bad score if he does not make the call from 100 feet to the asking coaches satisfaction. So as the base umpire who clearly saw the foot, you get a good score for asking for help, and your partner gets a bad score if his decision does not match that of the asking coach. Boy is that fair. It is just like a check swing, when the plate umpire never rings anyone up on a check swing and always asks for help on all check swings and especially 3rd strike swings (edited), to put the heat on the base umpire rather than call some (no I understand you cannot get them all and neither can I) of the check swings themselves, even the ones where the batter wraps the bat around his body.

There are already a couple help call situations that are normal anyway with the check swing, and the base umpire helping on ball that hit the batters foot and the base umpire calls foul because the catcher blocks out the plate guy. There are some others also, as my memory ain't too good anymore, but if we are going to get help on everything, you might as well just have a "help" convention.

[mstaylor]

Watch the good amateur umpires and the minor league umpires in a 2 man. They have to run around like a chicken with their heads cut off as the BU to get into "position" to make the call. Many times they have moved like hell to get into position for a play that never happens, but if it were to happen they were there to make the call. Now, once you are in position, you are watching the fielder's foot to see that it is on the bag and you are looking at the runners foot to see it on the bag and we are listening for the pop of the ball. If the fielder is stretching to get the ball sooner, or if he stretches because he needs to quickly catch the ball and come off the bag quickly to make another play, then it is the base umpires job to see if the fielder pulls his foot off the bag too soon. If his foot is not on the bag when the ball pops the glove then the BU should call safe-off the bag. If his foot is on the bag the runner is out. It is not the plate umpires call from behind home plate with the runner from 3rd base crossing home from 100 feet away. How can he have better judgment of whether the foot was on the bag when the ball popped the glove than the BU who is right there. There is a good possibility the plate umpire cannot hear the pop in the glove from that distance also.

How come we never have the problem of seeing the runner touch the base but we have the problem of seeing the 1st baseman touching the bag. We are never straight-lined or whatever terms you want to come up when seeing the runner touch the base, but we are straight-lined with the 1st baseman touching the base? What happens on replay if you were right as the base umpire and the plate umpire was wrong? It just seems like too many plays are being asked for help so the coach does not give you a bad score in areas where coaches scores count. In other words umpires who see the play and make the call concerning the foot on the bag or not (just like making the bang bang call itself) and do not get help if the coach asks, even though you clearly saw the call, get a lower score than the guy who does not go for help because help is not needed. There is no need to pacify the coach. If they give you bad scores for not getting help it is a crying shame. You are throwing all the responsibility and crap on your partner who will now get a bad score if he does not make the call from 100 feet to the asking coaches satisfaction. So as the base umpire who clearly saw the foot, you get a good score for asking for help, and your partner gets a bad score if his decision does not match that of the asking coach. Boy is that fair. It is just like a check swing, when the plate umpire always never rings anyone up on a check swing and always asks for help to put the heat on the base umpire rather than call some (no I understand you cannot get them all and neither can I) of the check swings themselves, even the ones where the batter wraps the bat around his body.

There are already a couple help call situations that are normal anyway with the check swing, and the base umpire helping on ball that hit the batters foot and the base umpire calls foul because the catcher blocks out the plate guy. There are some others also, as my memory ain't too good anymore, but if we are going to get help on everything, you might as well just have a "help" convention.

Well said Dumbdumb. I am not a fan of gratuitous meeting of umpires. There are times to get to gether to make rule interops are correct or awards are enforced correctly. The tendency in the past few years to get together for anything just because a coach asks is a horrible mechanic. If I feel I genuinely can get more information then I will go talk but I will not ask just because a coach asks. I know there are times that my partner is watching other things so there is no reason to drag him under the bus with me.

[yawetag]

In my short season so far, my partner and I have gotten together once.

On a deep fly to right that caromed off the chain-link fence. The coach thought it went behind the fence, hitting a wrought-iron one behind it. The debate was only fueled by the other coach, during ground rules, saying there may be holes under the chain-link fence.

[SnareDrum]

Roger, if the situation is such that your partner has other responsibilities then there is no way you can even consider asking him. It has nothing to do with arogant it has to do with doing your job. Watch on TV and when umpires huddle they usually come out with the wrong call.

Agreed. I usually know exactly what my partner is doing and should be watching, and I'll usually know he saw nothing. But on a call like that, perhaps to all watching and with a game on the line, at least considering the help should be on the table. Even if my partner was watching what he was supposed to be and saw nothing, at least all involved know that an honest attempt at the right call was made.

I'm not fan of gratuitous meetings either and I've had only two this year. One on a diving catch and the other on a INT vs. OBS. I had a banger at first with, yes, a possible pulled foot that the coach asked me to check with PU on and I told him (with zero doubts in my mind) that I saw it clearly and the toe was on the bag with the ball in the glove. Let's play.

[Dean]

I was doing an intense varsity contest; I was BU. Top 7, visitng team down a run with 1st and 3rd ... 2 out. Grounder to SS who throws in the dirt to first. One bouncer. Almost a banger, but would have (hopefully) received no guff about the call as it wasn't that close. I was ready to make the out call, but couldn't tell if he had the bag though ... lotta dust. So - before I made the call, I asked if "he had the bag". PU says "yes he did". Then I signaled out. The visiting team came unglued - ALL of them. Fans too. But, the games is over and we're walking. As we walk, the PU - who is a very respected ump in N. Illinois - says to me "you're supposed to make the call first then ask for help. If I give you information pointing to a reversal, you then reverse it." I never do it this way, and in this case - it added to the heat I received. But I think I'm right. Anyone else make the call, then ask for help? I don't believe that is the correct mechanic.

This topic just came up Tuesday night at our HS Assoc. meeting. Based on our discussion, you did it correctly. Get the information and then make the call. Get it right the FIRST time.

This is correct - get it right the first time. That was your call make it. Get in position to get that play with out help. 1st and 3rd - plate guy should be watching for a time play at home - not covering your ass.