Help Needed

[Magic]

I am not real familiar with OBR rules. I am a lot more knowledgeable with Federation Rules. So I need some help on this one. 

 

2 outs, runner on 2nd. I am in C. Ball hit to 3rd. He throws to 1st. I get straight lined. I call the kid out. The 3rd base coach walks over to me as I take off toe Right Center field. He asks me if I can get help with the call. 

 

So the questions is: At what point can the coach still ask for help in OBR? I can not find anything in the book that discusses it. If you can point me in the right direction to look it up myself I will as well. 

[flastyle727]

What was he questioning, he can't get help on a judgement call. Did he appeal the foot off the bag or a missed swipe tag? Need more details. I don't ask for help on any judgement calls regardless of rules set. That is just IMO.

[Magic]

If I am straight lined, I thought it implies a pulled foot. But if not I will be more clear. He wanted me to get help on a possible pulled foot. 

[flastyle727]

If I am straight lined, I thought it implies a pulled foot. But if not I will be more clear. He wanted me to get help on a possible pulled foot. 

 

What I meant is did he ask you to check on a pulled foot. Meaning he doesn't know if your straightlined, so he may have thought the kid beat the play out.

 

If a coach says "can you ask your partner if he pulled his foot" I'd go ask if I didn't see it clearly.

 

So in your OP, I'd have asked for help.

[Dragon29]

As long as they follow proper procedure, the coach or manager can make any request they want, including asking you to get help on a call, so he's not doing anything wrong.

 

Your reaction - whether or not you grant his request to get help - should be based upon how confident you are with your call.  If you're sure you got it right, just tell him that.  If you're uncertain, there's no reason to not get help. 

[flastyle727]

I think after re-reading the OP I see what your true question is:

I apologize,

 

At what point can the coach still ask for help in OBR? A coach can ask at anytime; however I feel less inclined to grant such request if he waits for both teams to leave the field and enter dugouts. I do not think OBR or any sanction mention specifics on that type of discussion.

[Magic]

Federation Rules state that it is up until the next pitch. I was curious if it was different in OBR. Because in OBR you can't have a dead ball appeal. But in this case he was asking for a pulled foot as the offensive team. But yes that was exactly what I was trying to figure out. 

[mstaylor]

OBR is no different than Fed. 

[flastyle727]

I can't read properly that's all!!

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[umpire_scott]

OBR is no different than Fed. 

 

OBR is no different than Fed. 

 

So this means that the coach "could" ask you to get help after the teams have left the field.  And in a case like that my conversation with my partner would be about where the beers are going to be served from after the game.  No way on that kind of a play am I changing my call and bringing both teams back out onto the field.  A good coach tells his BR to stay on the bag and immediately requests time. 

[Dragon29]

I don't know about you, but after I've called a player Out, I don't want his coach telling him to keep the bag.  That's showing me up.  You're out - leave.

 

If we decide I was wrong, we'll bring the runner back.

[bam]

I'm not having a conversation with a coach if he tells a runner called out to stay on the bag.  I'm telling him to get his player to the dugout.  Or the two of you are leaving for the remainder of the game. 

[Magic]

The Coach did everything right. He had the runner from 2nd go around 3rd and touch home before going to the dugout. The kid I called out went to the dugout. The coach came right too me in Right Center. He asked me if I could get help on that because he thought he pulled his foot. I said sure and went to my partner. That is when all hell broke loose, but that is for another story. Had he told his kid to stay on the base I would have handled things differently.

[Dragon29]

He asked me if I could get help on that because he thought he pulled his foot. I said sure and went to my partner. That is when all hell broke loose, but that is for another story.

 

I don't think we want to wait for that story (at least, I don't)  Whaddyamean, all Hell broke loose?  What happened?

[Magic]

Stuart I will share it tonight. I have to get some things done at work first.

[Magic]

Ok so I go to my partner and ask him if he saw a pulled foot. And he turns and walks to the fence to get the tournament director. I call him away from the fence and ask him what he is doing? He said he needed the TD to see if they can appeal the play. I said this is our call. What did you see? He said he saw a pulled foot. I said ok. Do you know if the runner from 2nd had reached 3rd yet? He said no he didn't. I said ok I will take it from here. I made the ruling that the BR was safe at 1st and we were returning R2 to 2nd. The defensive coach is more than irate. He is screaming thAt I am wrong and comes storming out to me with his Pony Rule Book. And says all of my kids were off the field he can't appeal. I said coach yes he can. He came right to me to ask. So then he tells me how wrong I am and tells me to show it to him in the book while holding the book up to my face. I calmly said coach the next time that book comes up by my face you will be gone. And it is not my job to show you the rule. It is your job to show it to me. And you are not going to find it in that book. So he says oh yes I will. I said ok you have 2 minutes. Needless to say he couldn't find it. So we have runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs. The next kid walks. Bases loaded. Next kid flies out to end the inning. The coaches spent the next 3 innings all worked up over  a call that had no impact on the game that at the time they were down 5-3 and ended up losing 12-3. They just couldn't get over it. And yes I gave the coach some rope since I kicked the call.

[Forest Ump]

Magic...Sounds like you handled the $hitstorm good. I just want to point out that this is not an appeal play. There  are only two types of appeal plays in baseball. Batting out of order and a missed base / failure to re-touch. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, (check swing is not one). Getting help is never an appeal play. In your case, even though you feel you were straight lined, I would stick with your original call. You have a better view of 1st base than the coach at 3rd base does. Just tell him he held the bag and that's that.

[treydawgmt]

If I felt there was at least a decent possibility there was a pulled foot that I could not see AND the coach came right to me, I would go get help.  In a situation where this is the 3rd out and both teams are doing what they should be, there is probably little way everyone won't be off the field by the time you get asked and get help.  So is life.

 

Hopefully I have pre-gamed with my partner on this though, and if there is a decent possibility I didn't see a pulled foot, I can look right away at my partner who can give me a hand signal to confirm or deny an out, and then I won't have to wait for the coach to ask me.  If not, just get the call right, and bring them back out.  That's my 

[mstaylor]

He comes out waving a rulebook in many face he is gone.I don't care what I kicked, he is not doing that.I also am not letting him have time to find it. He wants to protest, let him, his assistant can tell him the result.

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[blue23ll]

Waving rule books around is not acceptable, in fact, even bringing one on the field will get you tossed around here. Giving a coach 2 minutes to find something should never occur, tell him to get back to the bench. The problem with this whole situation is that it took so long, in my opinion, and no matter how it turned out you would have been holding the stinky end of the stick.

[BigUmp56]

I was hoping someone would point out that you're misunderstanding the difference between an appeal play and an appeal to an umpire. Thank you, ForestUmp. Think of it this way. When a coach wants you to go for help, what is the first thing they're supposed to do befote they come and talk to you? The answer is to request "time." Knowing that as well as knowing all appeals in OBR must be made during a "live" ball situation tells you that asking a crew to get together on a call is NOT an appeal, by rule.

Tim.

[Oldcrow]

Waving rule books around is not acceptable, in fact, even bringing one on the field will get you tossed around here. Giving a coach 2 minutes to find something should never occur, tell him to get back to the bench. The problem with this whole situation is that it took so long, in my opinion, and no matter how it turned out you would have been holding the stinky end of the stick.

 

I agreed to do a LL tourney and the league president told me I needed to have a rule book with me......I just laughed and said Umpires do not carry rule books.

[Magic]

An appeal to an umpire is different than an appeal play? So An appeal to an umpire can be done after the next pitch? Or do they have to be done before the next pitch? I know the answer. An appeal to an umpire in this situation is still the same. He is not appealing a tag up. He is asking me if the guy pulled his foot. I was asking if he could do that in OBR before the next pitch? Or if it has to be done before every defensive player leaves the field? I know that on an apeal of a play where a runner left early, it has to be done before every defensive player has left the field, because there is no dead ball appeals in OBR. In High School that is not the case.

[Dragon29]

Magic,

 

Thanks for sharing that story.

 

There is nothing I can find in Rule 9 that says when a manager loses his right to question a call (let's stop calling it an 'appeal' for ease of communication)  however, common sense says that if the DM thinks little Johnny is out, he'd better say something about it now, or once the next pitch or play occurs, it's over because the umpires cannot 'remove' him after the fact.  Conversely, if the OM thinks that kid should be safe, he's insane if he thinks we'll 'insert' him after another play occurs.

 

Tell us now so we can fix it now - if it needs to be fixed.

[noumpere]

An appeal to an umpire is different than an appeal play? So An appeal to an umpire can be done after the next pitch? Or do they have to be done before the next pitch? I know the answer. An appeal to an umpire in this situation is still the same. He is not appealing a tag up. He is asking me if the guy pulled his foot. I was asking if he could do that in OBR before the next pitch? Or if it has to be done before every defensive player leaves the field? I know that on an apeal of a play where a runner left early, it has to be done before every defensive player has left the field, because there is no dead ball appeals in OBR. In High School that is not the case.

Its not an appeal play and you wont find it in OBR because its a mechanic not a rule and because they are taught to get and own their own plays on this (although that is changing somewhat).

 

you can fix it until you think its too late to fix it.