Balk, or legal pick off move?

[maven]

Once F1 lifts his free foot from the set and begins the leg raise, I have a hard time envisioning how he can then make any move to his left without the free foot gaining any distance or direction towards home plate before a step to 1B.  The leg and foot will travel in an arc which will always go towards home before it goes to 1B.

 

C'mon, MP, where's your imagination? He can lift his free foot, bring it back toward 2B, keep spinning around to face 2B, rotate through 270°, and step and throw to 1B!

 

Still a balk, though, and for the same reason. 8.05(c )

[Mike Prince]

 

Once F1 lifts his free foot from the set and begins the leg raise, I have a hard time envisioning how he can then make any move to his left without the free foot gaining any distance or direction towards home plate before a step to 1B.  The leg and foot will travel in an arc which will always go towards home before it goes to 1B.

 

C'mon, MP, where's your imagination? He can lift his free foot, bring it back toward 2B, keep spinning around to face 2B, rotate through 270°, and step and throw to 1B!

 

Still a balk, though, and for the same reason. 8.05(c )

 

 

LOL 

[noumpere]

But, he actually stepped directly to first --- he turned and stepped in the direction of 1B, then he threw to 1B.

Directly means both "straight at" and "in an immediate move" .  He made two moves.

[JHSump]

 

But, he actually stepped directly to first --- he turned and stepped in the direction of 1B, then he threw to 1B.

Directly means both "straight at" and "in an immediate move" .  He made two moves.

 

That's a good comment.  You've made it explicitly clear what 8.05 ( c ) means.  Words do have meanings!

 

I am completely satisfied that the move I saw was a balk.  A violation of 8.05(c ).  He did not step directly to 1B.

[mstaylor]

Does anybody here disagree that a pitcher can swing to second, in either direction, to pick a runner? If true, then the same swing to the left, counterclockwise, is the same move you make to first. I was in chat last night discussing this thread and I may have made some headway. 

Imagine the free foot is a foot in front of the rubber. He swings his foot in that same arc and throws to first. He has not moved toward home. If he kicks that leg out toward home, he has. Many will lean slightly back to ensure he doesn't get nailed for going to the plate.

[mstaylor]

This is a good discussion and exactly why boards like this exist. A healthy discussion of rules without flaming. 

[JHSump]

This is a good discussion and exactly why boards like this exist. A healthy discussion of rules without flaming. 

I want to second that!

[noumpere]

Does anybody here disagree that a pitcher can swing to second, in either direction, to pick a runner? If true, then the same swing to the left, counterclockwise, is the same move you make to first. I was in chat last night discussing this thread and I may have made some headway. 

Imagine the free foot is a foot in front of the rubber. He swings his foot in that same arc and throws to first. He has not moved toward home. If he kicks that leg out toward home, he has. Many will lean slightly back to ensure he doesn't get nailed for going to the plate.

He can go to second either way of course but he cant start to go to second one way and then turn and go to second the other way.  In other words he cant lift to the balance point and then turn 270* to the other side to throw to second.

[blue23ll]

 

Does anybody here disagree that a pitcher can swing to second, in either direction, to pick a runner? If true, then the same swing to the left, counterclockwise, is the same move you make to first. I was in chat last night discussing this thread and I may have made some headway. 

Imagine the free foot is a foot in front of the rubber. He swings his foot in that same arc and throws to first. He has not moved toward home. If he kicks that leg out toward home, he has. Many will lean slightly back to ensure he doesn't get nailed for going to the plate.

He can go to second either way of course but he cant start to go to second one way and then turn and go to second the other way.  In other words he cant lift to the balance point and then turn 270* to the other side to throw to second.

 

No, then he would be doing the 'boogie-woogie' and that is ALWAYS a balk.

[JHSump]

Yeah, and the hokie-pokie is also a balk.  

 

(Not that there's anything wrong with being a Hokie.)

[umpire_scott]

 

Does anybody here disagree that a pitcher can swing to second, in either direction, to pick a runner? If true, then the same swing to the left, counterclockwise, is the same move you make to first. I was in chat last night discussing this thread and I may have made some headway. 

Imagine the free foot is a foot in front of the rubber. He swings his foot in that same arc and throws to first. He has not moved toward home. If he kicks that leg out toward home, he has. Many will lean slightly back to ensure he doesn't get nailed for going to the plate.

He can go to second either way of course but he cant start to go to second one way and then turn and go to second the other way.  In other words he cant lift to the balance point and then turn 270* to the other side to throw to second.

 

 

But the point is that when they turn to go to second they generally lift their leg first just like in the OP.  So why is it a balk when they left their leg and then go to first, but not a balk when they lift their leg and then go to second?

[Mike Prince]

Does anybody here disagree that a pitcher can swing to second, in either direction, to pick a runner? If true, then the same swing to the left, counterclockwise, is the same move you make to first. I was in chat last night discussing this thread and I may have made some headway.

Imagine the free foot is a foot in front of the rubber. He swings his foot in that same arc and throws to first. He has not moved toward home. If he kicks that leg out toward home, he has. Many will lean slightly back to ensure he doesn't get nailed for going to the plate.

He can go to second either way of course but he cant start to go to second one way and then turn and go to second the other way. In other words he cant lift to the balance point and then turn 270* to the other side to throw to second.

But the point is that when they turn to go to second they generally lift their leg first just like in the OP. So why is it a balk when they left their leg and then go to first, but not a balk when they lift their leg and then go to second? For a few reasons - move to 2b is continuous motion, a RHP leg kick and move to first without a 270 turn will bring the free foot towards home before it goes to 1B, and its almost impossible to do in a continuous motion (there will be a pause/shift at the change of direction).

[blue23ll]

It is possible to pick up the front foot and make a move toward 1st and not balk. I would not venture a guess as to the probability of it occurring, but I would say it was possible. They may also balk during the move if they hesitate. BUT, I would never say that moving the front foot commits a pitcher to the plate.

[mstaylor]

Mike,a leg kick without pitching is going to be a balk to anything except third. Picking his foot up and stepping to first is no different than a counterclockwise move to second. That move to second had you swinging by the plate and first. Everybody is making this harder than it is.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[Mike Prince]

Mike,a leg kick without pitching is going to be a balk to anything except third. Picking his foot up and stepping to first is no different than a counterclockwise move to second. That move to second had you swinging by the plate and first. Everybody is making this harder than it is.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

Then I am saying it wrong and making it more confusing, my bad.  Lifting the foot and going straight to any base is absolutely OK, the problem in this post is the leg raise after the foot lift (which I changed to a leg kick by accident) - F1 can wheel to 2B or step to 3B with this all day long but a defined raise of the leg from the set and a move to 1B will be a balk for a RHP every time to me unless he does something I can't envision based on the info presented here.

 

It's a lot easier being an umpire on the field than trying to dissect someone else's situation on the internet....

[noumpere]

I think the college rule has it best, and I parafraze here (if no one else finds it exactly by later I will post it): After lifting the free foot, the pitcher is committed to throw to the plate, the base being faced, or second.  It's a balk to throw to the base behind the pitcher.  If the pitcher wants to throw to the base not being faced the pitcher must make an immediate move and gain ground to that base.

 

 

 

 

But the point is that when they turn to go to second they generally lift their leg first just like in the OP.  So why is it a balk when they left their leg and then go to first, but not a balk when they lift their leg and then go to second?

 

Because that's how the rules makers want it (or at least how they wanted it and no one has succeeded in getting it changed since then)

[BigUmp56]

Mike,a leg kick without pitching is going to be a balk to anything except third. Picking his foot up and stepping to first is no different than a counterclockwise move to second. That move to second had you swinging by the plate and first. Everybody is making this harder than it is.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

Then I am saying it wrong and making it more confusing, my bad.  Lifting the foot and going straight to any base is absolutely OK, the problem in this post is the leg raise after the foot lift (which I changed to a leg kick by accident) - F1 can wheel to 2B or step to 3B with this all day long but a defined raise of the leg from the set and a move to 1B will be a balk for a RHP every time to me unless he does something I can't envision based on the info presented here.

 

It's a lot easier being an umpire on the field than trying to dissect someone else's situation on the internet....

I think you're explaining it pretty well, Mike. And I also think we're all more in agreement about this than it may seem. I think it comes down to a couple of things depending on the exact move. If he lifts the knee and comes toward balance WITHOUT the free foot going towards third or home he can spin to first without balking. Very hard to do, but legal. If he hesitates at the balance point we have a stop/start balk. If his free foot moves toward third or home first, we have a step balk.

Tim.

[noumpere]

If he lifts the knee and comes toward balance WITHOUT the free foot going towards third or home he can spin to first without balking.

 

No, he cant.  Period.  Dont make it harder than it is.

 

Here's the NCAA rules to which I referenced before -- both on the move to first and the spin move to second.  Not that it just says "lifts the leg" and nothing about "without the free foot going toward third or home" and this rule is the same in OBR and in HS.

 

(1) The pitcher, while touching the pitcher's rubber, must step toward the base, preceding or simultaneous with any move toward that base. The pitcher is committed, upon raising the lead leg, to throw to the base being faced, to second base or to the plate. When throwing or feinting a throw to a base not being faced, the pitcher must step immediately, directly and gain ground toward that base.

A.R. - If the pitcher throws to the first baseman who is playing off the base, a balk shall not be called if the fielder moves toward first base in an attempt to retire the runner.

(2) The "spin" or "open" move to second base is legal if the pitcher raises the lead leg and immediately, with a continuous motion, steps directly toward second base. The pitcher need not throw.

[BigUmp56]

I have not seen this interpretation in either NFHS or OBR rules. What I have seen in print that describes what I'm talking anout is the J/R amd the JEA. This NCAA ruling you've cited says that as long as he gains distance and direction toward a base he's NOT FACING it's a legal move. So, what's changed?

Tim.

[JaxRolo]

I can't believe this thread had gone so long. I thought this was a very simple balk to call. No brainier.

[mstaylor]

I can't believe this thread had gone so long. I thought this was a very simple balk to call. No brainier.

A simple step from the rubber is an easy no call. The leg lift,as shown in the picture, almost always a balk. It is  possible for it not to be but I will always tell coaches no to teach it because it almost impossible to do it legally. The risk/return is not good. The simple foot lift and step, the risk/return is very high if the umpires are properly trained. If you do it and the umpire insists on balking it, don't do it. 

[noumpere]

I have not seen this interpretation in either NFHS or OBR rules. What I have seen in print that describes what I'm talking anout is the J/R amd the JEA. This NCAA ruling you've cited says that as long as he gains distance and direction toward a base he's NOT FACING it's a legal move. So, what's changed?

Tim.

It also says "step immediately" and lifting the leg first is not "stepping immediately"

[mstaylor]

 

I have not seen this interpretation in either NFHS or OBR rules. What I have seen in print that describes what I'm talking anout is the J/R amd the JEA. This NCAA ruling you've cited says that as long as he gains distance and direction toward a base he's NOT FACING it's a legal move. So, what's changed?

Tim.

It also says "step immediately" and lifting the leg first is not "stepping immediately"

 

OK, so you are saying that it is impossible to step to first in any manner without disengaging, is this my understanding?

I will concede the big leg lift as being a balk because too many are going to balk it out of hand, plus most pitchers will screw it up anyway. I will continue in the minority that believes it to be legal but will accept that it is a very small minority. But I think you are saying you can't an engaged move from the rubber period. 

[noumpere]

 

 

I have not seen this interpretation in either NFHS or OBR rules. What I have seen in print that describes what I'm talking anout is the J/R amd the JEA. This NCAA ruling you've cited says that as long as he gains distance and direction toward a base he's NOT FACING it's a legal move. So, what's changed?

Tim.

It also says "step immediately" and lifting the leg first is not "stepping immediately"

 

OK, so you are saying that it is impossible to step to first in any manner without disengaging, is this my understanding?

I will concede the big leg lift as being a balk because too many are going to balk it out of hand, plus most pitchers will screw it up anyway. I will continue in the minority that believes it to be legal but will accept that it is a very small minority. But I think you are saying you can't an engaged move from the rubber period. 

 

I said no such thing and even given my fractured English I don't see how that could be read into it.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

I have not seen this interpretation in either NFHS or OBR rules. What I have seen in print that describes what I'm talking anout is the J/R amd the JEA. This NCAA ruling you've cited says that as long as he gains distance and direction toward a base he's NOT FACING it's a legal move. So, what's changed?

Tim.

It also says "step immediately" and lifting the leg first is not "stepping immediately"

 

OK, so you are saying that it is impossible to step to first in any manner without disengaging, is this my understanding?

I will concede the big leg lift as being a balk because too many are going to balk it out of hand, plus most pitchers will screw it up anyway. I will continue in the minority that believes it to be legal but will accept that it is a very small minority. But I think you are saying you can't an engaged move from the rubber period. 

 

I said no such thing and even given my fractured English I don't see how that could be read into it.

 

 

Easy logic.

 

It is impossible to step without lifting your foot - which is done by lifting your leg.  So if it is legal to step and throw to a base while engaged (which it is) then it is inherently legal to lift the leg at least enough to be able to step. Therefore, if you say you cannot legally lift the leg you are saying you cannot pick while engaged.