Balk

[Guest Tom]

Runner at second and first.

Infileders at their normal positions not holding a runner on.

Pitcher, from the set position, turns and throws directly to the shortstop.

Is this a balk? Doesn't the pitcher have to throw to an occupied base?

[grayhawk]

 

 

 

I have an addition to this question.  Same situation.

Runner at second and first.

Infielders at their normal positions not holding a runner on.

Except....

Pitcher, from the set position, turns and throws directly to the First baseman who is no where near the base or the runner.

Is this a balk? Is there a rule about being in the vicinity of the base?

Thanks

 

 

It must meet one of two requirements:

 

1.  Throw must be to the base, OR

2.  The umpire judges that they are making a play on the runner

 

In your scenario, neither applies, so it's a balk.

 

I disagree, with a runner on first, the pitcher can throw to F6 without a balk and that does not meet those requirements.

 

 

Are you purposely being obtuse?  He clearly stated that F1 threw to F3, which is what I was addressing.  Throwing to F6 (or F4) with R2 was covered earlier in the thread.

[maven]

I disagree, with a runner on first, the pitcher can throw to F6 without a balk and that does not meet those requirements.

If you mean R1 only and he's not stealing, then no, F1 may not step and throw to F6 without it being a balk.

 

Doing so would violate 8.05(d), the penalty for which is a balk.

[grayhawk]

He can absolutely throw to the First Baseman  without him covering 1st. I am not going to penalize a pitcher because the First Baseman screwed up. He satisfied what needed to be satisfied. Now most of the time, when the pitcher turns to through to First and noone is there, he panics and doesn't throw at all. BALK

 

The bolded is not correct.  Maven covered it well, and as he says, this play is specifically addressed in the Evans balk video.  If F1 throws to F3, who is away from the base and not making a play on R1 (maybe F3 didn't get the sign, or was asleep at the wheel), then this is most certainly a balk.  You are not penalizing the pitcher, you are penalizing the defense.  Same now goes for third base in OBR.

[noumpere]

How can this be so confusing still?  Its been covered multiple times in this thread alone.  The "THROW" requirements to first (and now to third) are different and more strict than the requirements to second (and under the  old rules, third).  The "STEP" requirements are the same to all bases.

[BigUmp56]

How can this be so confusing still?  Its been covered multiple times in this thread alone.  The "THROW" requirements to first (and now to third) are different and more strict than the requirements to second (and under the  old rules, third).  The "STEP" requirements are the same to all bases.

 

Exactly! And the primary reason they're different is due to the restriction that disallows a feint to first. There is no such restriction to second or third base.

 

Tim.

[soupcan]

 

 

 

 

I have an addition to this question.  Same situation.

Runner at second and first.

Infielders at their normal positions not holding a runner on.

Except....

Pitcher, from the set position, turns and throws directly to the First baseman who is no where near the base or the runner.

Is this a balk? Is there a rule about being in the vicinity of the base?

Thanks

 

 

It must meet one of two requirements:

 

1.  Throw must be to the base, OR

2.  The umpire judges that they are making a play on the runner

 

In your scenario, neither applies, so it's a balk.

 

I disagree, with a runner on first, the pitcher can throw to F6 without a balk and that does not meet those requirements.

 

 

Are you purposely being obtuse?  He clearly stated that F1 threw to F3, which is what I was addressing.  Throwing to F6 (or F4) with R2 was covered earlier in the thread.

 

I guess I missed that this was specific to first base.

[mstaylor]

I will try to describe the play more accurately.

The right handed picther in the set postion lifts his front foot and turns directly, and throws, to the shortstop at his normal postion between 2cnd and 3rd base. The runner at second had a normal leadoff and was not attemting a steal of 3rd base.

 

My understanding was that from the set position the picther has 3 options.

Deliver the ball to home plate.

Turn directly to a base and throw, (except second base)

Step off the rubber and lower both hands.

 

Thanks for the comments.

Throwing to the SS is perfectly legal in all codes. OBR is a little different simply because they have made a move to third have same restrictions as first. There is no ambiguity in OBR, you can fake to second and throw to either F4 or F6 with no problem.  

[soupcan]

 

I disagree, with a runner on first, the pitcher can throw to F6 without a balk and that does not meet those requirements.

If you mean R1 only and he's not stealing, then no, F1 may not step and throw to F6 without it being a balk.

 

Doing so would violate 8.05(d), the penalty for which is a balk.

 

What if he is not throwing to a base and is only throwing the position. I think this is covered by 8.02©

[noumpere]

 

 

I disagree, with a runner on first, the pitcher can throw to F6 without a balk and that does not meet those requirements.

If you mean R1 only and he's not stealing, then no, F1 may not step and throw to F6 without it being a balk.

 

Doing so would violate 8.05(d), the penalty for which is a balk.

 

What if he is not throwing to a base and is only throwing the position. I think this is covered by 8.02©

 

It's very confusing which play your talking about now.  But, if the play is R1 only, not stealing, then its a balk for F1 to throw to F6, F4 or 2nd base.  Or F5 or third base.  Or left field. etc.

[grayhawk]

 

 

I disagree, with a runner on first, the pitcher can throw to F6 without a balk and that does not meet those requirements.

If you mean R1 only and he's not stealing, then no, F1 may not step and throw to F6 without it being a balk.

 

Doing so would violate 8.05(d), the penalty for which is a balk.

 

What if he is not throwing to a base and is only throwing the position. I think this is covered by 8.02©

 

 

On the rubber:  Balk - 8.05d

Off the rubber:  Warning for delay (and removed on the second one) - 8.02c

[soupcan]

 

 

 

I disagree, with a runner on first, the pitcher can throw to F6 without a balk and that does not meet those requirements.

If you mean R1 only and he's not stealing, then no, F1 may not step and throw to F6 without it being a balk.

 

Doing so would violate 8.05(d), the penalty for which is a balk.

 

What if he is not throwing to a base and is only throwing the position. I think this is covered by 8.02©

 

 

On the rubber:  Balk - 8.05d

Off the rubber:  Warning for delay (and removed on the second one) - 8.02c

 

If he is not throwing to a base, how is it a violation of 8.05d?

[BigUmp56]

 

If he is not throwing to a base, how is it a violation of 8.05d?

 

 

 

Because with R1 only throwing to a fielder is considered to be throwing to an unoccupied base.

 

Tim.

[soupcan]

 

 

If he is not throwing to a base, how is it a violation of 8.05d?

 

 

 

Because with R1 only throwing to a fielder is considered to be throwing to an unoccupied base.

 

Tim.

 

Is there a rule that covers this? What if he throws to the left fielder?

[BigUmp56]

 

 

 

If he is not throwing to a base, how is it a violation of 8.05d?

 

 

 

Because with R1 only throwing to a fielder is considered to be throwing to an unoccupied base.

 

Tim.

 

Is there a rule that covers this? What if he throws to the left fielder?

 

 

Yes. 8.05D.

 

Balk if he throws to F7.

 

With R1 only and not attempting to advance, the only base a pitcher can throw to from the rubber is first base.

 

Tim.

[soupcan]

 

 

 

 

If he is not throwing to a base, how is it a violation of 8.05d?

 

 

 

Because with R1 only throwing to a fielder is considered to be throwing to an unoccupied base.

 

Tim.

 

Is there a rule that covers this? What if he throws to the left fielder?

 

 

Yes. 8.05D.

 

Balk if he throws to F7.

 

With R1 only and not attempting to advance, the only base a pitcher can throw to from the rubber is first base.

 

Tim.

 

I guess my question is that if 8.05d covers throwing to an unoccupied base, what is the rule that states throwing a fielder is considered an unoccupied base.

 

Also, 8.02c make no mention of being in contact with the pitcher's plate, so wouldn't this be covered better under 8.02c?

 

I guess if I have an argument on this one and use the umpire-empire message board as the source of my ruling, it may not go over very well.

[maven]

Is there a rule that covers this? What if he throws to the left fielder?

From the rubber, F1 may do only 3 things:

1. Step and throw (or feint, if permitted) to a base.

2. Legally disengage

3. Pitch to the batter

 

#1 is further restricted: the base to which he throws or feints must be occupied or, if unoccupied, the throw must be an attempt to make a play (retire a runner).

 

For any base to which he may feint, he may throw to a fielder away from that base (he could throw to F4, F6, or F8, for example). But if he must throw, it must be to the base or to a fielder in position to make a play at the base.

 

This is a distillation of a number of different rules. I don't have time to cite them all right now.

[noumpere]

The comment to 8.05(h) shows a little about how the rules are related.  And, I would agree that in general 8.02© and 8.05(h) would be more likely to apply when the pitcher is not touching the rubber and 8.05(d) when he is touching the rubber

[Magic]

Ok maybe I explained it differently than what you wanted to hear. If pitcher throws to first base and the First Baseman is not standing to receive said throw and make an obvious play on the runner I am not going to Balk it IF,,, the first baseman makes any kind of a move that would make it look like an attempt was being made. If he gets drilled in the side of the head with the ball? BALK

[maven]

Ok maybe I explained it differently than what you wanted to hear. If pitcher throws to first base and the First Baseman is not standing to receive said throw and make an obvious play on the runner I am not going to Balk it IF,,, the first baseman makes any kind of a move that would make it look like an attempt was being made. If he gets drilled in the side of the head with the ball? BALK

 

Sorry, that's still incorrect.

 

It's not about whether he attempts to make a play. It's whether he's in position to make a play. If he's 12 feet from the bag, receives the throw, and runs over to the base, that's a balk.

[grayhawk]

Ok maybe I explained it differently than what you wanted to hear. If pitcher throws to first base and the First Baseman is not standing to receive said throw and make an obvious play on the runner I am not going to Balk it IF,,, the first baseman makes any kind of a move that would make it look like an attempt was being made. If he gets drilled in the side of the head with the ball? BALK

Sorry, that's still incorrect.

It's not about whether he attempts to make a play. It's whether he's in position to make a play. If he's 12 feet from the bag, receives the throw, and runs over to the base, that's a balk.

I agree with your example, but not your interpretation. Evans says it doesn't matter if the play was close, only that the umpire judges that a play was in the works. So change your example so that F3, who started 12 feet from the base, but moved a few feet towards it in advance of the throw and receives the throw, say, 8 feet from the base. R1 read the play and got back easily. Even though F3 wasn't in position to make the play, this is not a balk.

Not sure if that's what you were saying, but that's how I read it.

[maven]

Ok maybe I explained it differently than what you wanted to hear. If pitcher throws to first base and the First Baseman is not standing to receive said throw and make an obvious play on the runner I am not going to Balk it IF,,, the first baseman makes any kind of a move that would make it look like an attempt was being made. If he gets drilled in the side of the head with the ball? BALK

Sorry, that's still incorrect. It's not about whether he attempts to make a play. It's whether he's in position to make a play. If he's 12 feet from the bag, receives the throw, and runs over to the base, that's a balk. I agree with your example, but not your interpretation. Evans says it doesn't matter if the play was close, only that the umpire judges that a play was in the works. So change your example so that F3, who started 12 feet from the base, but moved a few feet towards it in advance of the throw and receives the throw, say, 8 feet from the base. R1 read the play and got back easily. Even though F3 wasn't in position to make the play, this is not a balk. Not sure if that's what you were saying, but that's how I read it. I agree with that. By "in position to make a play," I did not mean to restrict it to his initial position, but rather his position when he received the throw. 8 feet and moving to the base is in position to make a play, but that part is judgment.

[Magic]

Exactly my point. It is all judgement. And umpires will judge it the way they see it. But as long as the judgement is a play was in the works then we all get the same conclussion. And if the Judgement was that no play was in the works, it is a Balk.

[Guest Tom]

R2 is taking a nomal leadoff, F1 is on the rubber in the set position and turns his front foot and throws the ball directly to F6 who is not holding the runner on. F6 cathces the ball looks at R2 who retreats to the bag and then throws the ball back to the pitcher. This was done 3 times during the same at bat.

 

Front foot did not go towards a bag.

There was no attempt to make a play.

 

Issue a warning for delay of game?

 

[maven]

R2 is taking a nomal leadoff, F1 is on the rubber in the set position and turns his front foot and throws the ball directly to F6 who is not holding the runner on. F6 cathces the ball looks at R2 who retreats to the bag and then throws the ball back to the pitcher. This was done 3 times during the same at bat.

 

Front foot did not go towards a bag.

There was no attempt to make a play.

 

Issue a warning for delay of game?

 

Legal.

 

No delay, since the clock resets after each throw/feint to a base.

 

Pointless and silly, like ugly or bush, is not illegal.

[noumpere]

Its a balk (unless I guess your league has some other rule).  Note that its not a balk for throwing to F6, its a balk for not stepping as part of the throw.