Little test on Balk rule

[Dragon29]

OK - Thanks

I don't speak FED, so I'm talkin' only OBR.

So, if in the original scenario (can't say 'OP'; we're way beyond that) R1 had re-touched 1B before receiving his award on the ball thrown OOP, there would be no appeal. B) Got it - thanks

:WTF

[mstaylor]

Seems like yo got the OBR interp and JM is correct for FED also.

[Majordave]

An extreme example might be an R1, running on the pitch, batter hits a towering fly ball to CF. The F8 catches it and then throws to F3 to "double up" the R1. However, he throws the ball out of play. The oblivious R1, who is really fast, is between 3B and home at the time the ball enters DBT.

...Under FED rules, if the runner is "at or beyond" his "advance" base (that is, whatever base comes after the one he missed or failed to retouch), his opportunity to correct his infraction has, in fact, been abrogated. JM

I know the runner is supposed to touch all bases but under FED he has no opportunity to do so with this rule and the DEFENSE makes a mistake and they get rewarded for it. (if they are awake enough to appeal)

What do you think about the advice of McArtor, Hiter and Paronto this past weekend for NCAA's "bad" rules?-"If you think it is a bad rule start calling it instead of innoring it and the rules committee (the coaches) will change it." I don't think that would work for FED. There are very few coaches on NFHS rules committee.

I have not had that happen to me, YET, so I don't know if I would "miss" it or not. I HATE rewarding bad play with a dumb rule. I hope I am not the umpire responsible for watching runner touches/tags when/IF that does occur in a game I am working.

Hope it doesn't happen to me. (Now that I have commented it probably will.)

[jamesparke]

I agree Johnny is right on the spot!

[BT_Blue]

Hiter

Dave,

Im glad you didnt add the L to Tom HiLer. Talk about not the right way to get on his good side. LOL

[chuck]

New sitch, new guy... be gentle. Coaching JR LL game last weekend (Big field, OBR). Opposing coach is complaining to umpire that our lefty pitcher is balking... because he is staring at R1, and then delivers a pitch without looiking in to the catcher, again. Ump tells me about it after game, and laughed it off. Then coach stops me in parking lot and tells me I need to work on it with the pitcher. I told him I would look it up, never had read it. I didn't think so, reread it, still don't see it. What say ye?

[Dragon29]

New sitch, new guy... be gentle. Coaching JR LL game last weekend (Big field, OBR). Opposing coach is complaining to umpire that our lefty pitcher is balking... because he is staring at R1, and then delivers a pitch without looiking in to the catcher, again. Ump tells me about it after game, and laughed it off. Then coach stops me in parking lot and tells me I need to work on it with the pitcher. I told him I would look it up, never had read it. I didn't think so, reread it, still don't see it. What say ye?

Rule 8.05(f) - but, it's a HTBT sitch to determine whether or not he's in violation. From your description, it's hard to tell for sure

[Umpire in Chief]

New sitch, new guy... be gentle. Coaching JR LL game last weekend (Big field, OBR). Opposing coach is complaining to umpire that our lefty pitcher is balking... because he is staring at R1, and then delivers a pitch without looiking in to the catcher, again. Ump tells me about it after game, and laughed it off. Then coach stops me in parking lot and tells me I need to work on it with the pitcher. I told him I would look it up, never had read it. I didn't think so, reread it, still don't see it. What say ye?

Hey welcome Chuck. I have no balk here, there's no requirement for him to be looking at the catcher. I've seen this quite a bit.

[mstaylor]

It is nothing. As long as there isn't a quick pitch, leave it alone. Most pitchers are less effective when they do this because they aren't picking the plate up early enough.

Many LH pitchers get in the habit of telegraphing their moves by looking at the runner when they are going home and looking at the plate when they are throwing to first. Teach him to mix his look habits, his set and delivering speeds and velosity of throws to first. The more different things he can do to confuse the runner, the more success he will have.

[chuck]

mst,

Thanks. I also had nothing. But, just getting started in umpiring, along with coaching.

You're right about the habit. Will work with him on that. Also, thanks for the welcome. Been lurking for a few weeks, really enjoying the site. Learning, and reinforcing.

[mazzamouth]

jim,

Well I didn't think it was so easy!

In order to keep our brains working...

1 out, R1 & R3.

Batter hits a "gapper" into LFC that looks like a stand-up double off the bat. Both runners are off and running as the ball leaves the bat. But, the F8 (who happens to be really fast) gets a great jump on the ball and makes a running, backhanded catch. As the base coaches begin to scream at their runners to return, the F8 gathers, turns and fires a hurried strike back to the infield. The F1 cuts off the throw to the 3B side of the mound, and, as the R3 approaches 3B, fires a throw on a direct line towards 3B - about 10' over the leaping F5's outstretched glove hand.

As the R3 slides back into 3B, the ball sails into the street adjacent to the field and the umpire calls "TIME!" The R3 is awarded home and the R1 is awarded 3B. The R3 proceeds to and touches home. The R1, who was almost back to 1B when the umpire called time, reverses course and goes on to touch 2B, and is proceeding towards 3B when he realizes his 1B coach is screaming at him to come back and touch 1B. Dutifully touching 2B on his way, the R1 returns and touches 1B, then touches 2B on his way to 3B where he stops.

After this has transpired, the defense (properly) appeals at 1B.

Your questions,should you care to play:

1. What is your ruling on the appeal? (and, what is the appeal? - this may seem like an "unfair" question at first blush, but I don't think it is.)

2. Does the R3's run score or not? Why?

3. Would it depend on the rule code?

(Depending on the discussion, there may be a "follow-up" question.)

JM

1. Yes the defense can still appeal. ( they are appealing that he left to soon) But he is Safe.

2. yes the run score..cause we only have 2 outs.

In obr or NCAA

OBR rule 7.10b a.r.2 When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

MLBUM 07' page 40. It talks about the runners "next base" is determined by his position at the time the ball went out of play.

At the time the ball went out of play, the runner was between 2nd and 3rd. therefore in this play the runner must return and touch 1st before touching 3rd.

So to answer the question the run scores we now have 2 outs with a R3.

WOW no one has a MLBUM?... am I the only one?.... this was a good read BTW...LOL

Edited March 18, 2009 by mazzamouth

[mstaylor]

I have a MLBUM but it is older than yours.

Back to JM's play.

You are right the run scores but the appeal is valid and the R1 is out. This is not a forceout so since it was appealed after R3 scored then you have a run in and three outs.

R1 was returning to touch first but he stopped short. He then eversed course and touched second, where he finally gets the message to retouch first, which he does, then takes his award. Since he touched second AFTER the ball was dead then he is no longer allowed to correct his baserunning error. If he had stopped just before second he would have been fine.

[mazzamouth]

I have a MLBUM but it is older than yours.

Back to JM's play.

You are right the run scores but the appeal is valid and the R1 is out. This is not a forceout so since it was appealed after R3 scored then you have a run in and three outs.

R1 was returning to touch first but he stopped short. He then eversed course and touched second, where he finally gets the message to retouch first, which he does, then takes his award. Since he touched second AFTER the ball was dead then he is no longer allowed to correct his baserunning error. If he had stopped just before second he would have been fine.

It does not matter that he changed his mind/revered his course, even though he touched 2nd he can still go back and retouch 1st..

MLBUM 07' page 40. It talks about the runners "next base" is determined by his position at the time the ball went out of play.

At the time the ball went out of play, the runner was between 2nd and 3rd. therefore in this play the runner must return and touch 1st before touching 3rd.

J/R manual pg 72 A.2.Eg. R1, 1 out. R1, thinking there is 2 outs continues running past 2nd as the batter's fly ball goes toward the right fielder. The right fielder catches the ball for the 2nd out and throws toward 1st for an appeal of R1's failure to retouch. R1 is standing between 2nd and 3rd when the right fielder's throw goes out of play: If R1 DOES NOT proceed to TOUCH 3rd after the ball has become dead, he can return to touch 1st, 2nd and 3rd in accepting his award. So here you go right out of the J/R manual.

Edited March 19, 2009 by mazzamouth

[mstaylor]

I may be reading into the interp but I believe in both of your cites, it is talking about the runner being between 2nd and 3rd, then going back to retouch first. As long as he doesn't touch 3rd after the ball is dead, I completely agree.

The OP has the runner between 1st and 2nd. If touches 2nd after the ball is dead and before he retouches 1st then he is liable for an appeal.

Now in your cite, the runner is between 2nd and 3rd when the ball goes out of play. If

he goes back to retouch first and while between 1st and 2nd, reverses again and touches second, reverses again, actually retouches first, touches second, and then third. This I contend is illegal.