Little test on Balk rule

[jim knight]

Runner on second base / 1 ball 1 strike on batter / F1 balks but delivers the pitch / pitch hits the batter... what whould you do?

[UmpJM]

Jim,

Enforce the balk (i.e., R2 to 3B) and disregard the pitch (i.e. batter still at bat with 1 & 1 count). All codes

JM

[Dragon29]

. . . very Little test on Balk rule . . .

Sorry, jim - valid question; I shoulda kept my mouth shut.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Dragon29
added apology

[Umpire in Chief]

I'd love to see these situations questions keep coming. It keeps the brain active and will help when you get the situation on the field.

[catoblue]

... What JM said.

[jim knight]

Yep... JM is right on... sorry it was so easy but it was question that came up at a clinic and some of the guys made it harder than it needed to be / like Warren said it gets your brain working.

[UmpJM]

Yep... JM is right on... sorry it was so easy but it was question that came up at a clinic and some of the guys made it harder than it needed to be / like Warren said it gets your brain working.

jim,

Well I didn't think it was so easy!

In order to keep our brains working...

1 out, R1 & R3.

Batter hits a "gapper" into LFC that looks like a stand-up double off the bat. Both runners are off and running as the ball leaves the bat. But, the F8 (who happens to be really fast) gets a great jump on the ball and makes a running, backhanded catch. As the base coaches begin to scream at their runners to return, the F8 gathers, turns and fires a hurried strike back to the infield. The F1 cuts off the throw to the 3B side of the mound, and, as the R3 approaches 3B, fires a throw on a direct line towards 3B - about 10' over the leaping F5's outstretched glove hand.

As the R3 slides back into 3B, the ball sails into the street adjacent to the field and the umpire calls "TIME!" The R3 is awarded home and the R1 is awarded 3B. The R3 proceeds to and touches home. The R1, who was almost back to 1B when the umpire called time, reverses course and goes on to touch 2B, and is proceeding towards 3B when he realizes his 1B coach is screaming at him to come back and touch 1B. Dutifully touching 2B on his way, the R1 returns and touches 1B, then touches 2B on his way to 3B where he stops.

After this has transpired, the defense (properly) appeals at 1B.

Your questions,should you care to play:

1. What is your ruling on the appeal? (and, what is the appeal? - this may seem like an "unfair" question at first blush, but I don't think it is.)

2. Does the R3's run score or not? Why?

3. Would it depend on the rule code?

(Depending on the discussion, there may be a "follow-up" question.)

JM

Edited January 22, 2009 by UmpJM

[Replacematt]

jim,

Well I didn't think it was so easy!

In order to keep our brains working...

1 out, R1 & R3.

Batter hits a "gapper" into LFC that looks like a stand-up double off the bat. Both runners are off and running as the ball leaves the bat. But, the F8 (who happens to be really fast) gets a great jump on the ball and makes a running, backhanded catch. As the base coaches begin to scream at their runners to return, the F8 gathers, turns and fires a hurried strike back to the infield. The F1 cuts off the throw to the 3B side of the mound, and, as the R3 approaches 3B, fires a throw on a direct line towards 3B - about 10' over the leaping F5's outstretched glove hand.

As the R3 slides back into 3B, the ball sails into the street adjacent to the field and the umpire calls "TIME!" The R3 is awarded home and the R1 is awarded 3B. The R3 proceeds to and touches home. The R1, who was almost back to 1B when the umpire called time, reverses course and goes on to touch 2B, and is proceeding towards 3B when he realizes his 1B coach is screaming at him to come back and touch 1B. Dutifully touching 2B on his way, the R1 returns and touches 1B, then touches 2B on his way to 3B where he stops.

After this has transpired, the defense (properly) appeals at 1B.

Your questions,should you care to play:

1. What is your ruling on the appeal? (and, what is the appeal? - this may seem like an "unfair" question at first blush, but I don't think it is.)

2. Does the R3's run score or not? Why?

3. Would it depend on the rule code?

(Depending on the discussion, there may be a "follow-up" question.)

JM

1. Safe, defense has lost its right to appeal (OBR, NCAA; ) out, failure to legally retouch a base left before a catch (FED)

2. Yep, inning isn't over (OBR, NCAA; ) yep, run scored before third out (FED)

3. Yes in reasoning, no in outcome (assuming question 3 refers to question 2.)

[JohnnySpot]

1. Safe, defense has lost its right to appeal (OBR, NCAA; ) out, failure to legally retouch a base left before a catch (FED)

2. Yep, inning isn't over (OBR, NCAA; ) yep, run scored before third out (FED)

3. Yes in reasoning, no in outcome (assuming question 3 refers to question 2.)

im gonna disagree with Matt

(all OBR)

1. OUT...why has defense lost its right to appeal...the ball thrown out of play was part of continuous action...there has not been a play or attempted play after the ball became dead (and then put back into play)...

PBUC manual 3.10 ...'retouching bases when ball is dead'

"When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left too soon after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base"

2. run scores...this is a time play

Edited January 22, 2009 by JohnnySpot

[MCLEOD36]

I am with Johnny. The appeal is legal and is continuing action, caught ball must retouch, then go to 2nd and third. Run scores, timing play.

[Umpire in Chief]

Good question. I'm not going to reply because I looked it up, but I will say my initial answer was wrong.

[Replacematt]

I have to stop reading these on dog watch. Somehow, I thought there was a break in action before the throw to 3rd.

[catoblue]

I concur with JohnnySpot's ruling. R1 never retouched before touching 2B, so he's out on the appeal, and R3 Scores on timing play.

[mstaylor]

jim,

Well I didn't think it was so easy!

In order to keep our brains working...

1 out, R1 & R3.

Batter hits a "gapper" into LFC that looks like a stand-up double off the bat. Both runners are off and running as the ball leaves the bat. But, the F8 (who happens to be really fast) gets a great jump on the ball and makes a running, backhanded catch. As the base coaches begin to scream at their runners to return, the F8 gathers, turns and fires a hurried strike back to the infield. The F1 cuts off the throw to the 3B side of the mound, and, as the R3 approaches 3B, fires a throw on a direct line towards 3B - about 10' over the leaping F5's outstretched glove hand.

As the R3 slides back into 3B, the ball sails into the street adjacent to the field and the umpire calls "TIME!" The R3 is awarded home and the R1 is awarded 3B. The R3 proceeds to and touches home. The R1, who was almost back to 1B when the umpire called time, reverses course and goes on to touch 2B, and is proceeding towards 3B when he realizes his 1B coach is screaming at him to come back and touch 1B. Dutifully touching 2B on his way, the R1 returns and touches 1B, then touches 2B on his way to 3B where he stops.

After this has transpired, the defense (properly) appeals at 1B.

Your questions,should you care to play:

1. What is your ruling on the appeal? (and, what is the appeal? - this may seem like an "unfair" question at first blush, but I don't think it is.)

2. Does the R3's run score or not? Why?

3. Would it depend on the rule code?

(Depending on the discussion, there may be a "follow-up" question.)

JM

I will do OBR and NCAA first:

When the ball goes out of play, R3 has legally retouched third. He is awarded home, which he does fine. The R1 is returning when he stops and starts his award. Once he touches second, he cannot fix his error so his is subject to appeal. He can even go back and retouch but it doesn't change the fact that he will be out on appeal. The end result is one run and three outs.

In Fed the play would be the same but there is a caveat. If the R1 had been past second when the ball went out he wouldn't be able to fix his error. In OBR and NCAA he can return as long as he doesn't touch an advance base after the ball go OOP.

This is all from memory so feel free to punch holes in it.

[UmpJM]

Michael,

That sounds correct to me in all respects.

And your "caveat" anticipated my possible follow-on question regarding the sitch where the runner is "a base beyond" at the time the ball goes out of play.

JM

[Dragon29]

jim,

Well I didn't think it was so easy!

In order to keep our brains working...

1 out, R1 & R3.

Batter hits a "gapper" into LFC that looks like a stand-up double off the bat. Both runners are off and running as the ball leaves the bat. But, the F8 (who happens to be really fast) gets a great jump on the ball and makes a running, backhanded catch. As the base coaches begin to scream at their runners to return, the F8 gathers, turns and fires a hurried strike back to the infield. The F1 cuts off the throw to the 3B side of the mound, and, as the R3 approaches 3B, fires a throw on a direct line towards 3B - about 10' over the leaping F5's outstretched glove hand.

As the R3 slides back into 3B, the ball sails into the street adjacent to the field and the umpire calls "TIME!" The R3 is awarded home and the R1 is awarded 3B. The R3 proceeds to and touches home. The R1, who was almost back to 1B when the umpire called time, reverses course and goes on to touch 2B, and is proceeding towards 3B when he realizes his 1B coach is screaming at him to come back and touch 1B. Dutifully touching 2B on his way, the R1 returns and touches 1B, then touches 2B on his way to 3B where he stops.

After this has transpired, the defense (properly) appeals at 1B.

Your questions,should you care to play:

1. What is your ruling on the appeal? (and, what is the appeal? - this may seem like an "unfair" question at first blush, but I don't think it is.)

2. Does the R3's run score or not? Why?

3. Would it depend on the rule code?

(Depending on the discussion, there may be a "follow-up" question.)

JM

OK - I'm going to try this w/o reading the other's responses first. I know it's been a few days, but I've been out of town.

1) I think you're thinking the defense is appealing R1's failure to re-touch after the catch. Me? I'd ask, "What are you appealing?" If they are, I'm not upholding it.

7.08(d) The runner shall not be called out for failure to retouch the base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play.

2) Yes, it does. He had previously legally acquired 3B and should be awarded Home on the throw OOP.

3) Not sure; in OBR I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[UmpJM]

Dragon,

Clarification on your #1 answer. You suggest that the defense has lost its right to appeal because there was "a following pitch or play" if I'm reading you right.

What was it?

JM

[Dragon29]

F1's attempt to put out R3 @ 3B

[UmpJM]

F1's attempt to put out R3 @ 3B

Dragon,

That is what I had guessed.

While I would certainly agree that the F1's ill-fated attempt to retire R3 was an "appeal", and that he "erred" in his attempt, by official interpretation, the defense has not lost it's right to make a subsequent appeal once the ball is put back in play.

Since the action you cite was part of the "continuous action" of the play during which the baserunning infraction occured, it does not negate the defense's opportunity to make a subsequent "post continuous action" appeal.

JM

[Dragon29]

JM,

You're right - I had originally interpreted F1's throw as a standard attempt to pick off a runner who was off base, not an appeal. Of course, if it was an appeal attempt (& it likely was) they would not have lost their right to appeal @ 1B.

So, in this situation we don't take into consideration that R1's right to re-touch 1B (which he was clearly attempting to do) was abrogated by the umpire's call of 'Time'?

[UmpJM]

JM,

...So, in this situation we don't take into consideration that R1's right to re-touch 1B (which he was clearly attempting to do) was abrogated by the umpire's call of 'Time'?

Dragon,

That is correct - we do NOT take that into consideration because there was no abrogation and the runner, even though the ball is dead, is required to run the bases legally in completing his award. And it is his (and his coaches') obligation to know that.

JM

[Dragon29]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, I do think R1's right to re-touch 1B was removed by the umpire's call of 'Time.' I'm here at work right now so don't have ready access to rules or interps - where is the rule that says once a runner has touched 2B in this sitaution, he loses his right to re-touch 1B? (provided he re-touches 2B on his way back if necessary)

Again, not challenging you - just curious where it is.

Thanks

[UmpJM]

Dragon,

The rule that says the runner has lost his right to re-touch 1B in this sitch is 7.10(B) AR2:

APPROVED RULING: ... (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Why do you believe that the umpire's call of "Time!" removed the runner's right to retouch 1B? It didn't, and that is an incorrect way to think about the sitch.

JM

[Dragon29]

Jm,

Thanks for the rule quote, but I wasn't questioning whether or not R1 lost his right to re-touch once 'Time' was called; I was questioning whether or not he would lose that right once he advanced (albeit, not 'legally') to 2B in a live ball situation.

So, in a similar situation, but one that might not include R3 scoring, a quick-thinking F1 could simply throw the ball OOP in order to deny R1 the ability to re-touch and thus get a 'cheap' appeal out. Granted this is unlikely to happen, but if, for example, F3 had wandered too far from 1B to get a live appeal during continuous action, F1 could throw the ball OOP and once play resumed, appeal to 1B. Interesting. TWP, I know.

[UmpJM]

Dragon,

In a live ball situation, it's a little different - and the ruling might well be different between FED and OBR.

In OBR, the runner may go as far as he likes while the ball is in play without losing his opportunity to correct his retouch (or a "missed" base, for that matter). It's what he does after the ball goes out of play that might cause him to lose the opportunity to correct his infraction.

An extreme example might be an R1, running on the pitch, batter hits a towering fly ball to CF. The F8 catches it and then throws to F3 to "double up" the R1. However, he throws the ball out of play. The oblivious R1, who is really fast, is between 3B and home at the time the ball enters DBT. Under OBR, as long as the R1 does not then touch home, he may correct his infraction by, while the ball is dead, reversing course, touching 3B, then touching 2B, then touching 1B, and then completing his award.

Under FED rules, if the runner is "at or beyond" his "advance" base (that is, whatever base comes after the one he missed or failed to retouch), his opportunity to correct his infraction has, in fact, been abrogated. (I'm gonna see if I can work that word into the next conversation I have with a coach! B))

Unless, of course, the umpire judges that the fielder threw the ball out of play intentionally in order to prevent the runner's opportunity to correct his infraction. (No, I am NOT making this up! See 8-3-3d, about 2/3rds of the way through.)

JM