forced slide call?

[Ring 'em Up]

Pony Game; bases loaded; hit to F6 who throws wide to F2 who is on his knees in back of HP about one foot on first base side.  R3 is running in to score and runs a little wide to 'round' HP.  F2 catches the throw backhanded, R3 is now one step away from HP and F2 swings his glove around for the tag.  R3's foot touches HP, then the tag is applied.

 

As i look at 8-4-b-1: Runners are never required to slide,but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal. (2-32-1, 2).  2-32-2-f states: "a slide is illegal if the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

 

Therefore, R3 must slide in this situation?

 

ron-

[grayhawk]

First, Pony is playing Fed rules?

 

Second, you answered your own question - a runner is never required to slide.

[mrumpiresir]

No, the runner does not need to slide.  Since F2 attempted a tag there will not likely be an attempt to turn a double play so there would be no interference. It also seems that if there is contact, it would occur on top of the plate so that wouldn't be illegal. You gotta use your judgement on this play.

[Jocko]

He must either slide legally, avoid contact or avoid INT. There is, as you stated, no "mandatory" slide. If there was no malicious contact (sounds like there was only a tag attempt) or INT, then it's nothing. I got nothing on your OP play.

[Ring 'em Up]

First, Pony is playing Fed rules?

 

Second, you answered your own question - a runner is never required to slide.

.

Pony site says: Play is governed by the "Official rules of Major League Baseball"

 

i guess what i'm wondering is if rule  2-32-2-f, overrides rule  8-4-b-1 in this situation. 

 

My call was 'safe', there was no contact between R3 & F2 except from F2 applying the tag to R3's foot after it touched HP.  it was obvious to me that R3 by going wide and rounding HP was in essence trying to avoid any contact w/F2.

 

i ask this question because the OC ran out and said that R3 was out due to a forced slide rule, but when looking at the pony.org, i see nothing relating to a forced slide rule.  

ron- 

[grayhawk]

First, Pony is playing Fed rules?

 

Second, you answered your own question - a runner is never required to slide.

.

Pony site says: Play is governed by the "Official rules of Major League Baseball"

 

i guess what i'm wondering is if rule  2-32-2-f, overrides rule  8-4-b-1 in this situation. 

 

My call was 'safe', there was no contact between R3 & F2 except from F2 applying the tag to R3's foot after it touched HP.  it was obvious to me that R3 by going wide and rounding HP was in essence trying to avoid any contact w/F2.

 

i ask this question because the OC ran out and said that R3 was out due to a forced slide rule, but when looking at the pony.org, i see nothing relating to a forced slide rule.  

ron- 

 

That's why I asked.  The rules you cite are Fed references and have no validity in a Pony game.  However, there is a Pony league here in Orange County that has adopted the Fed FPSR.  All of the umpires for this league are high school umpires, so it's easy for us to call it.

 

There is no FPSR on your play.  If this league has adopted Fed FPSR, it sounds like that coach doesn't understand it.

[Big Red]

Ron,

+1 to what grayhawk stated, and to directly answer your question, under basic PONY rule R3 does not have to slide.  Each PONY league/chapter is different; however, all use OBR as their primary ruleset with allowed modifications.

 

Are you a PONY-registered umpire?

If you are, they send you a copy of the current year OBR (when it is published...usually later in the season) and the PONY Rules and Regulations supplement, which is sent out right away.  If you aren't, I recommend it...they even include insurance and all PONY leagues I know of require their umpires to be registered.

The supplement they put out is small...mainly covers player eligibility, rosters, tournaments, pitching limits, etc.  As far as rules go, this book only mentions options for base-stealing and illegal players, equipment and jewelry (basically mirrors Fed in that area).

* EDIT - Here is the link to the e-version of this pub:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4thpFVwl9skZ3lOVkNwQnBNX0E/edit?pli=1

 

However, you will not find anything about FPSR or even collisions at home.  As grayhawk mentions, most PONY leagues have adopted Fed FPSR and MC rules, but there are some that haven't, including one around here.  I even sent an e-mail to PONY Ask-The-Umpire a couple years ago about avoiding a collision at the plate and they confirmed, if the local league doesn't have its own rule, it's allowed per OBR! 

I just think its crazy I can do a Bronco game (12U) and have a runner barrel over the catcher w/o penalty, then turn around on a HS game and call out/eject a kid for the same thing.

Anyway, key here is to consult with your league's officials concerning local rules, etc.

[Ring 'em Up]

Ron,

+1 to what grayhawk stated, and to directly answer your question, under basic PONY rule R3 does not have to slide.  Each PONY league/chapter is different; however, all use OBR as their primary ruleset with allowed modifications.

 

Are you a PONY-registered umpire?

If you are, they send you a copy of the current year OBR (when it is published...usually later in the season) and the PONY Rules and Regulations supplement, which is sent out right away.  If you aren't, I recommend it...they even include insurance and all PONY leagues I know of require their umpires to be registered.

The supplement they put out is small...mainly covers player eligibility, rosters, tournaments, pitching limits, etc.  As far as rules go, this book only mentions options for base-stealing and illegal players, equipment and jewelry (basically mirrors Fed in that area).

* EDIT - Here is the link to the e-version of this pub:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4thpFVwl9skZ3lOVkNwQnBNX0E/edit?pli=1

 

However, you will not find anything about FPSR or even collisions at home.  As grayhawk mentions, most PONY leagues have adopted Fed FPSR and MC rules, but there are some that haven't, including one around here.  I even sent an e-mail to PONY Ask-The-Umpire a couple years ago about avoiding a collision at the plate and they confirmed, if the local league doesn't have its own rule, it's allowed per OBR! 

I just think its crazy I can do a Bronco game (12U) and have a runner barrel over the catcher w/o penalty, then turn around on a HS game and call out/eject a kid for the same thing.

Anyway, key here is to consult with your league's officials concerning local rules, etc.

.

Ok.. i went to and found the following at the layb.org site and this is the rule they use:

 

 

A base runner is automatically out and subject to ejection if in the Umpire's judgment: 

(a) He/she fails to slide to avoid a hard collision at any base other than 1st when the ball arrives 

simultaneously with or before the runner.

 

 

therefore, in 'my judgement' i make the ruling on wither or not the runner 'avoids', correct? if so, i still stand by my original call of safe.  it was clearly obvious to me that the runner was trying to 'avoid' as he moved 2 feet out of the baseline 10 feet from the plate to 'touch the corner' and round HP. (which is exactly what he did)

 

funny thing here, if the runner had slid, the catchers glove wrist would have been toast..

 

Ron-

[noumpere]

If there was no had collision then there can be no failure to avoid a hard collision and you got it right.

[BT_Blue]

No, the runner does not need to slide. Since F2 attempted a tag there will not likely be an attempt to turn a double play so there would be no interference. It also seems that if there is contact, it would occur on top of the plate so that wouldn't be illegal. You gotta use your judgement on this play.

FPSR does not require an attempted double play. It only requires a force play situation and a non legal slide by a runner.

[mrumpiresir]

No, the runner does not need to slide. Since F2 attempted a tag there will not likely be an attempt to turn a double play so there would be no interference. It also seems that if there is contact, it would occur on top of the plate so that wouldn't be illegal. You gotta use your judgement on this play.

FPSR does not require an attempted double play. It only requires a force play situation and a non legal slide by a runner.

 

This is true.  I probably should have worded my response differently but I see nothing in the OP that leads me to believe there was interference in the first place.  There is a difference between illegally taking out F4 or F6 at 2nd base while attempting to make a relay to first and the situation in the OP.  

[NFUA_44]

No, the runner does not need to slide. Since F2 attempted a tag there will not likely be an attempt to turn a double play so there would be no interference. It also seems that if there is contact, it would occur on top of the plate so that wouldn't be illegal. You gotta use your judgement on this play.

FPSR does not require an attempted double play. It only requires a force play situation and a non legal slide by a runner.

The second sentence finishes the logic train.  You only have one of the two pieces.  A force play, but no illegal slide.  Slide or avoid is another can of corn that requires your judgment and is more about what contact there is and it's legality.