Illegal Sub Question

[Richvee]

Came across this today and I'm looking for some clarification.

 

3.1.1...

For discovery of an illegal player (2-36-3) on offense by an umpire or either team, that player shall be called out and restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game....

....If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance, discovery must be made by an umpire or either team before the first pitch to the next batter of either team. This would invalidate the action of the illegal offensive player. Any out(s) made on the play stands and all other runners return to the base(s) occupied at the time of the pitch.

 

Case play 3.1.1 SITUATION G:

With two outs and an illegal substitute on second base, B4 hits a home run out of the park. Before the next pitch, the illegal substitute is discovered.

RULING: The illegal substitute is called out and restricted to the bench. No runs score, since the out on the runner at second base was the third out. The home run is nullified. B4 leads off the next inning.

 

My question...Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly....

 In the case play, are we to assume the illegal sub entered the game as a pinch runner at 2nd? Otherwise, if he was an illegal sub pinch hitting, for example, and doubled to end up on 2nd, wouldn't that be considered "advancing" and therefore he would have had to be "discovered" before the first pitch to B4 in order to "invalidate" his action? 

 

 

 

[SnareDrum]

So... if the illegal sub has to be discovered before the first pitch to the next batter, and that pitch occurs occurs, how can the penalty be enforced in this case play? Yeah, I need a little clarification too. 

 

Has to be something I'm missing here.

[Richvee]

The way I see it, this is the key

 

If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance

 

If he was put on 2nd as a pinch runner, he hasn't advanced, scored a run, made a play that allows another runner to advance yet...So, he can be discovered after the home run pitch, but before the next pitch, because now he has met the criteria (scored a run.) for him to be"invalidated"

 

Of course if this is true, it begs the question, what happens if he is discovered AFTER another pitch?

 

Let's say R3, no outs, S1 illegal sub pinch hitting singles, run scores. Next batter strikes out. Next batter singles, S1 to 2nd. then someone says "hey that guy on 2nd is an illegal sub.". Is he just pulled from the game with no out recorded? 

I guess he's just out of the game and the play stands?

[UmpJM]

Richvee,

 

No no such assumption is necessary or warranted. The illegal sub could have come into the game two inning earlier on defense.

 

No one noticed.

 

He finally come up to bat and gets a single.

 

No one noticed he's an illegal sub.

 

He steals 2B. No one noticed he's an illegal sub.

 

A following batter hits a home run. Before a subsequent pitch/play, someone notices he's an illegal sub and calls it to the umpire's attention. The illegal sub is declared out and his (apparent) run is nullified. If the 3rd out, any following runners runs are also nullified.

 

It's not that the illegal sub has to be discovered immediately after his initial advance, the penalty comes into effect whenever he is discovered. Except advances prior to his being discovered (i.e. beyond a previous pitch/play ago) may stand, and he is only declared out if he is on base when discovered or has just scored on the immediately previous play.

 

JM

[noumpere]

The way I see it, this is the key

 

If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance

 

If he was put on 2nd as a pinch runner, he hasn't advanced, scored a run, made a play that allows another runner to advance yet...So, he can be discovered after the home run pitch, but before the next pitch, because now he has met the criteria (scored a run.) for him to be"invalidated"

 

Of course if this is true, it begs the question, what happens if he is discovered AFTER another pitch?

 

Let's say R3, no outs, S1 illegal sub pinch hitting singles, run scores. Next batter strikes out. Next batter singles, S1 to 2nd. then someone says "hey that guy on 2nd is an illegal sub.". Is he just pulled from the game with no out recorded? 

I guess he's just out of the game and the play stands?

So to follow on JMs explanation, in your last play right above, R3 scores becasue the discovery of S1 was "too late".  But, now S1 is out and ejected because hes discovered while still on base.

[UmpJM]

noumpere,

 

Correct. Though technically I believe he is "restricted" rather than ejected.

 

JM

[JaxRolo]

Richvee,

 

No no such assumption is necessary or warranted. The illegal sub could have come into the game two inning earlier on defense.

 

No one noticed.

 

He finally come up to bat and gets a single.

 

No one noticed he's an illegal sub.

 

He steals 2B. No one noticed he's an illegal sub.

 

A following batter hits a home run. Before a subsequent pitch/play, someone notices he's an illegal sub and calls it to the umpire's attention. The illegal sub is declared out and his (apparent) run is nullified. If the 3rd out, any following runners runs are also nullified.

 

It's not that the illegal sub has to be discovered immediately after his initial advance, the penalty comes into effect whenever he is discovered. Except advances prior to his being discovered (i.e. beyond a previous pitch/play ago) may stand, and he is only declared out if he is on base when discovered or has just scored on the immediately previous play.

 

JM

 

^^^^^^^^^^^ Good Answer ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Jocko]

Richvee, No no such assumption is necessary or warranted. The illegal sub could have come into the game two inning earlier on defense. No one noticed. He finally come up to bat and gets a single. No one noticed he's an illegal sub. He steals 2B. No one noticed he's an illegal sub. A following batter hits a home run. Before a subsequent pitch/play, someone notices he's an illegal sub and calls it to the umpire's attention. The illegal sub is declared out and his (apparent) run is nullified. If the 3rd out, any following runners runs are also nullified. It's not that the illegal sub has to be discovered immediately after his initial advance, the penalty comes into effect whenever he is discovered. Except advances prior to his being discovered (i.e. beyond a previous pitch/play ago) may stand, and he is only declared out if he is on base when discovered or has just scored on the immediately previous play. JM

so you're saying if the IS scores and a pitch/play/attempted play/IBB/etc. happens, you don't nullify the run. Regardless of when he subbed, it's when he's reported that matters. Correct?

[UmpJM]

Jocko,

 

Correct. (reported or "noticed" by an umpire)

 

Trying to "go back" could create insoluble problems.

 

JM

[Jocko]

Agreed. Treated much like a BOO. I would like to point something out. If an illegal sub occurs, 50%+ of the balme belongs to HP (as long as it's a reported sub). You keep a good lineup card, it won't happen. As soon as HC announces the sub, you pull out the card, and... "Hey Dave. You're putting in 12 for 6??? You sure?" Problem averted. He'll think about it and fix it before it happens. Preventive officiating.

[Richvee]

Thanks JM. That explains it perfectly.

Jocko- You're right on too. Only problem is sometimes I'm on the bases and don't have the lineup card!!! 

[BT_Blue]

Don't forget to take the information given in the case book like you do with test questions. That is, take it at face value. If you start reading into it, it can lead to more problems then it is worth.