Improper batter/balk/HBP

[ikeequa]

Nice and detailed, thanks. Just one simple question: If I ignored the balk before, why do I suddenly apply it? Because if I apply it, wouldn't that negate the HBP and put the improper batter at the plate who can then simply be replaced? I'm just trying to understand the reasoning. Which rule says to do this, or is in simply an interpretation of the rules?

[ikeequa]

That is what I have done. But for some reason they always bring up the balk. That is also what someone here posted on the "Ask the Umpire" board. Depending on which umpire you ask, you get a different answer. I am trying to figure out if it is an interpretation of the rules, or if there is a specific rule that covers this. 6.07b is very clear.

[Forest Ump]

The sequence of events as per your OP are as follows:

 

Bases loaded, no outs, pitcher balks, and pitches and hits the batter. The batter is the improper batter.

 

The balk is a delayed dead ball. The HBP allows the batter to reach first and forces all runners to advance one base. Therefore, the balk is disregarded. (MLB Umpires Manual 7.9.6, If a balk is followed by a pitch that strikes the batter, call “time" the moment that the pitch strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batter forces all other runners to advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk) also see 8.05 penalty.

 

The ball is now made live and the defense appeals the improper batter is on first. The appeal is upheld and the proper batter is called out. Play reverts back to the time when the improper batter took his position in the batter’s box. All runners return to their base and the run is nullified . The batter following the proper batter that was called out comes to the plate. One out, bases loaded, no run scored.

[Jocko]

Youre not ignoring the balk. It happened and was called. DDB. When the HBP happens, it kills the ball. NOW is when you enforce the balk penalty. Youset it aside to deal with each thing individually.

[JaxRolo]

So by everyone including BR advancing a base safely that satisfies the requirement of ignoring the balk. Then the defense can appeal for the out

[JaxRolo]

Someone needs to combine the 2 threads!

[Jocko]

So by everyone including BR advancing a base safely that satisfies the requirement of ignoring the balk. Then the defense can appeal for the out

exactly. Worded differently, same end result.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

Gentlemen, I wish to offer a contary approach to this play as I see things a little differently.

In deciding my ruling, I'm looking at "who screwed up"?

I will agree it's a DDB, BUT I don't think the balk factors into things as much as you say OBR 8.05 Penalty. The rulebook says as long as the BR advances to 1st (through various methods including hit by pitch) and all runers advance the balk shall be ignored. Now we have BOO 6.07 The BR is on first he could have gotten there via a base hit or a walk, but he ot there by being hit by a pitch. R1 R2 and R3 all advancd so the balk is ignored. The defensive manager now appeals for batting out of turn. So in looking at who screwed up?? Both sides did, The defence balked BUT there was no adverse affect to the offence. BUT the offense also screwed up and they should not be able to gain an advantage becuase of it. So for me a balk is initally indicatd BUT as soon as the BR reaches first its no longer a poit here. Then comes bating out of turn. The rule is enforcd and the proper batter is declared out and all advancs are nulified So I say 1 out bases loaded.

[Jocko]

The sequence of events as per your OP are as follows:

 

Bases loaded, no outs, pitcher balks, and pitches and hits the batter. The batter is the improper batter.

 

The balk is a delayed dead ball. The HBP allows the batter to reach first and forces all runners to advance one base. Therefore, the balk is disregarded. (MLB Umpires Manual 7.9.6, If a balk is followed by a pitch that strikes the batter, call “time" the moment that the pitch strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batter forces all other runners to advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk) also see 8.05 penalty.

 

The ball is now made live and the defense appeals the improper batter is on first. The appeal is upheld and the proper batter is called out. Play reverts back to the time when the improper batter took his position in the batter’s box. All runners return to their base and the run is nullified . The batter following the proper batter that was called out comes to the plate. One out, bases loaded, no run scored.

apparently, the discussion from Germany is not here with the same different stances.

[Jocko]

NOW, not NOT

[Replacematt]

There is no way to justify the enforcement of the balk. The batter DID reach first safely. Remember, a runner called out on appeal is considered having reached that base for the purposes of a balk.

[ikeequa]

apparently, the discussion from Germany is now here with the same different stances.

This is what I feared, but I am extremely grateful for the level of information here. No matter I I look at it, I still come up with the same answer: 1 out, bases loaded. I really want to understand it if this is wrong.

[Jocko]

Gentlemen, I wish to offer a contary approach to this play as I see things a little differently. In deciding my ruling, I'm looking at "who screwed up"?I will agree it's a DDB, BUT I don't think the balk factors into things as much as you say OBR 8.05 Penalty. The rulebook says as long as the BR advances to 1st (through various methods including hit by pitch) and all runers advance the balk shall be ignored. Now we have BOO 6.07 The BR is on first he could have gotten there via a base hit or a walk, but he ot there by being hit by a pitch. R1 R2 and R3 all advancd so the balk is ignored. The defensive manager now appeals for batting out of turn. So in looking at who screwed up?? Both sides did, The defence balked BUT there was no adverse affect to the offence. BUT the offense also screwed up and they should not be able to gain an advantage becuase of it. So for me a balk is initally indicatd BUT as soon as the BR reaches first its no longer a poit here. Then comes bating out of turn. The rule is enforcd and the proper batter is declared out and all advancs are nulified So I say 1 out bases loaded.

I see your point. Good call.

[grayhawk]

8.05:

APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one base for the purpose of this rule.

This is just below the section that describes the play proceeding without reference to the balk.

The balk in the OP is disregarded, and you have one out, bases loaded, with E back up to bat.

Edit: I realize that the approved ruling deals with a missed base, and not BOO, but both are appeals that would result in runners not advancing if BR is called out on appeal.

[Rich Ives]

8.05:

APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one base for the purpose of this rule.

This is just below the section that describes the play proceeding without reference to the balk.

The balk in the OP is disregarded, and you have one out, bases loaded, with E back up to bat.

Edit: I realize that the approved ruling deals with a missed base, and not BOO, but both are appeals that would result in runners not advancing if BR is called out on appeal.

 

 

A "runner" is not the "batter-runner".

 

The batter-runner did NOT achieve 1B safely.  Enforce the balk.

[mstaylor]

My first thought was bases loaded, D called out and E up to bat. The problem is a balk is really no different than a passed ball. If the runners had advanced because of a passed ball they would be legal. The initial HBP caused the balk to be ignored, the BOO caused D to be called out and E removed from base. The runners are now advanced because of the balk. It is reconsidered because the reason for it's nullification went away. 

If you want to discuss punishing the screw up, defense balked so had a run scored on them. The offense screwed up, had a runner removed and had an out called on their hitter. Offsetting penalties, replay first down.

[mstaylor]

There is no way to justify the enforcement of the balk. The batter DID reach first safely. Remember, a runner called out on appeal is considered having reached that base for the purposes of a balk.

 

 

 

 

But the BR isn't called out, the improper batter is. The BR is now back at bat.

[mstaylor]

I merged the two topics so it will be a little odd. Glance through the thread if you haven't read both threads.

[grayhawk]

Well, if Rich and Michael both disagree with me, then I'll certainly reconsider, but not without a rule reference, official interpretation or authoritative opinion. Whatcha got guys?

[Pete Peterson Sr]

What rule set?

It's not FED, that's for sure.

Why not?

 

 

 Because I'm pretty sure they don't use FED rules in Germany !!!  

[JaxRolo]

What rule set?

It's not FED, that's for sure.

Why not?

Because I'm pretty sure they don't use FED rules in Germany !!!

Nazi Rules

[ikeequa]

Is it possible to grant a Balk and HBP on a single play? If the HBP negates the balk because the batter and all runners advanced one base, doesn't this mean that the Balk never occurred? If that is the case, how can it be applied retroactively?

 

Like Grayhawk said, rule 6.07 (2b) is clear: nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise.

 

NOTE: If a runner advances, while the improper batter is at bat, on a stolen base, balk, wild pitch or passed ball, such advance is legal.

 

Does this note apply to all pitches before the batters action or the final pitch of his at bat? In other words, are runners allowed to advance on the final pitch to an improper batter? I read someplace that runners are not allowed to advance on the final pitch. If this is true, it has to be 1 out, bases loaded.

 

If as Rich says, the BR did not reach 1B safely, is there then no HBP and the improper batter still at bat?

[Jocko]

I may be completely seeing this from the opposite side of the fence, but the sequence of events seem to dictate the appropriate ruling.

1. Balk

2. HBP

3. Appeal for BOO.

The runners advancing didn't happen as a result of the improper batter, but because of the balk. Say a balk is called on a pitch called a ball. Next pitch is the HBP. BR reaches 1B. Ball is put back in play. Appeal is made for BOO. The runners wouldn't be sent back, correct? Why would they, then, in the OP?

[Jocko]

Just point them to 6.07 ( b ).  It's cut and dried, and even mentions what happens when the batter becomes a runner when he is HPB.

 

When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out, and the defensive team

appeals to the umpire before the first pitch to the next batter of either team, or

before any play or attempted play, the umpire shall (1) declare the proper batter

out; and (2) nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the

improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an

error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise.

I would completely agree. Except for the balk. Runners don't advance on HBP, they advance on the balk. The HBP, IMO, doesn't nullify the balk. Fed has this one right. Kill it on the balk.

[ikeequa]

I may be completely seeing this from the opposite side of the fence, but the sequence of events seem to dictate the appropriate ruling.

1. Balk

2. HBP

3. Appeal for BOO.

The runners advancing didn't happen as a result of the improper batter, but because of the balk. Say a balk is called on a pitch called a ball. Next pitch is the HBP. BR reaches 1B. Ball is put back in play. Appeal is made for BOO. The runners wouldn't be sent back, correct? Why would they, then, in the OP?

Because in this case there is no Balk. As soon as the HBP occurs and all runners advance one base, it nullifies the balk. (Rule 8.05 PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.) The balk and HBP occurred on the same play/pitch.

 

In this case everyone (including the Batter) advanced because of the HBP and therefore, there is no balk. The appeal then occurs after the play is completed and before the next play.

If we say that everyone advanced on the Balk, then there was no HBP and the improper batter is still up.