LL Sr pitching regs

[dddunn3d]

I have never encountered the following, of course until last weekend (Rich, please help).

HT F1 pitches into the sixth inning and according to the VT exceeds the pitch limit in recording the second out (a strike-out). However, VT brings this to our attention after the next batter grounds out to end that half.

In our sitch, VT wanted us to re-set the game to the point where the HT F1 is still legal; i.e., nullify the inning-ending ground-out, recall that batter to the plate, and have HT bring in a new F1. As luck would have it, the VT's scorekeeper had 89 pitches while the HT book had 82 pitches, so it quickly became a moot point.

But suppose that in fact the VT was correct-- that the HT F1 had indeed exceeded the pitch limit during the second out K, but did not bring it up until after the third out was recorded. What is the procedure? Did the VT lose the opportunity to appeal because of the intervening play, akin to that of a missed-base appeal, or BOO?

[carolinablue]

I believe this would be a protest situation and protests involving inelgible players need to made before the umpires leave the field. Remove the pitcher immediately if he is found to be inelgible and resume the game under protest.

[Jimurray]

I have never encountered the following, of course until last weekend (Rich, please help).

HT F1 pitches into the sixth inning and according to the VT exceeds the pitch limit in recording the second out (a strike-out). However, VT brings this to our attention after the next batter grounds out to end that half.

In our sitch, VT wanted us to re-set the game to the point where the HT F1 is still legal; i.e., nullify the inning-ending ground-out, recall that batter to the plate, and have HT bring in a new F1. As luck would have it, the VT's scorekeeper had 89 pitches while the HT book had 82 pitches, so it quickly became a moot point.

But suppose that in fact the VT was correct-- that the HT F1 had indeed exceeded the pitch limit during the second out K, but did not bring it up until after the third out was recorded. What is the procedure? Did the VT lose the opportunity to appeal because of the intervening play, akin to that of a missed-base appeal, or BOO?

If this was truly a Senior LL game the pitch count limit should have been 95 and the pitcher can exceed that if reached during an at bat to finish the at bat or inning.

[Rich Ives]

Pitch count is based on the pitcher's age, not the label on the division. If the pitcher is 13-16 the limit is 95 (7-8 is 50; 9-10 is 75; 11-12 is 85; 17+ is 105). There are also age based rest requirements

You have an ineligible pitcher he is replaced upon discovery and the game is continued under protested per 4.19(d). There is no reset at the game. The protest committee will decide what to do. The official protest must be made before the umpires leave the field.

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

[carolinablue]

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

I'm offended. ..........Not really but I will say this. Sometimes you have a rules question where the answer is easily found in the rule book but you may be at work or busy and it's easier to post on here and ask then wait and let it bug the crap out of you. It's different if someone is using this site as their personal rule book but I haven't seen that here. Also, anything posted benifits more than just the original poster. There's thousands of members on this site. Someone is going to read this thread and run into that situation in a game and know exactly how to handle it. I mean you could make the argument that there is plenty of rule books and supplementary materials out there to find the answer to any umpiring question, so why do we need this site at all.

[Rich Ives]

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

I'm offended. ..........Not really but I will say this. Sometimes you have a rules question where the answer is easily found in the rule book but you may be at work or busy and it's easier to post on here and ask then wait and let it bug the crap out of you. It's different if someone is using this site as their personal rule book but I haven't seen that here. Also, anything posted benifits more than just the original poster. There's thousands of members on this site. Someone is going to read this thread and run into that situation in a game and know exactly how to handle it. I mean you could make the argument that there is plenty of rule books and supplementary materials out there to find the answer to any umpiring question, so why do we need this site at all.

I did say what the rules are. Sometimes I just say to go look it up. ;-)

And seriously - Isn't teaching a man to fish a bertter thing to do?

[noumpere]

Im in general agreement with Rich on this that there are too many times when a clear and specific answer that requires no interpretation is right in the book and the question makes me think that whoever asked it didnt know that. Now if someone wants to say that he or she is away from the books and someone else needs an answer right away etc then that is different.

Besides I cant tell you how much I learned looking up one thing and finding out about something else.

[Jimurray]

Pitch count is based on the pitcher's age, not the label on the division. If the pitcher is 13-16 the limit is 95 (7-8 is 50; 9-10 is 75; 11-12 is 85; 17+ is 105). There are also age based rest requirements

You have an ineligible pitcher he is replaced upon discovery and the game is continued under protested per 4.19(d). There is no reset at the game. The protest committee will decide what to do. The official protest must be made before the umpires leave the field.

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

If this was truly a SRLL game, no age 12 player would be participating and the pitch count limit would be 95 so there would be no ineligible pitcher no matter which number the OP reported as the pitch count. Which brings up the question of who the league designated as the Official pitch counter.

[Rich Ives]

Pitch count is based on the pitcher's age, not the label on the division. If the pitcher is 13-16 the limit is 95 (7-8 is 50; 9-10 is 75; 11-12 is 85; 17+ is 105). There are also age based rest requirements

You have an ineligible pitcher he is replaced upon discovery and the game is continued under protested per 4.19(d). There is no reset at the game. The protest committee will decide what to do. The official protest must be made before the umpires leave the field.

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

If this was truly a SRLL game, no age 12 player would be participating and the pitch count limit would be 95 so there would be no ineligible pitcher no matter which number the OP reported as the pitch count. Which brings up the question of who the league designated as the Official pitch counter.

The pitch count is age based - not level based. All I did was list them.

Yes - there should be an official counter.

But ALL the participants seem to have demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge of the pitching rules. Not only the limits and remedies, but how could there be a seven pitch discrepancy? One or two - maybe. But seven? They don't even know how to count them.

[dddunn3d]

Pitch count is based on the pitcher's age, not the label on the division. If the pitcher is 13-16 the limit is 95 (7-8 is 50; 9-10 is 75; 11-12 is 85; 17+ is 105). There are also age based rest requirements

You have an ineligible pitcher he is replaced upon discovery and the game is continued under protested per 4.19(d). There is no reset at the game. The protest committee will decide what to do. The official protest must be made before the umpires leave the field.

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

I don't have any LL rule books, etc. because I average 6 Jr-Sr LL games (all interleague) a year. Unless they're available somewhere on the interwebz, the arcane rules I let the local league(s) handle.

Interesting though, both coaches were obviously under the impression the pitch limit was 85.

[Rich Ives]

Pitch count is based on the pitcher's age, not the label on the division. If the pitcher is 13-16 the limit is 95 (7-8 is 50; 9-10 is 75; 11-12 is 85; 17+ is 105). There are also age based rest requirements

You have an ineligible pitcher he is replaced upon discovery and the game is continued under protested per 4.19(d). There is no reset at the game. The protest committee will decide what to do. The official protest must be made before the umpires leave the field.

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

I don't have any LL rule books, etc. because I average 6 Jr-Sr LL games (all interleague) a year. Unless they're available somewhere on the interwebz, the arcane rules I let the local league(s) handle.

Interesting though, both coaches were obviously under the impression the pitch limit was 85.

If you're going to umpire LL you need LL rule books. Some of the "arcane" rules are important to know, and not just the pitching limits. Ask one of the leagues to provide one.

And given that LL is the largest youth BB org by far - maybe "arcane" isn't the best description of their rules.

[UmpTTS43]

I agree with Rich. If you work a particular league, you need to have a copy of the rules on hand. During my season I use OBR, NCAA, and occasionally FED. I have current rule books on hand and reference them often, especially the rules differences.

[BRUMP]

Pitch count is based on the pitcher's age, not the label on the division. If the pitcher is 13-16 the limit is 95 (7-8 is 50; 9-10 is 75; 11-12 is 85; 17+ is 105). There are also age based rest requirements

You have an ineligible pitcher he is replaced upon discovery and the game is continued under protested per 4.19(d). There is no reset at the game. The protest committee will decide what to do. The official protest must be made before the umpires leave the field.

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

I don't have any LL rule books, etc. because I average 6 Jr-Sr LL games (all interleague) a year. Unless they're available somewhere on the interwebz, the arcane rules I let the local league(s) handle.

Interesting though, both coaches were obviously under the impression the pitch limit was 85.

If you're going to umpire LL you need LL rule books. Some of the "arcane" rules are important to know, and not just the pitching limits. Ask one of the leagues to provide one.

And given that LL is the largest youth BB org by far - maybe "arcane" isn't the best description of their rules.

+1

[mstaylor]

Anything 90ft is going to be at least 95.

[Jimurray]

Anything 90ft is going to be at least 95.

You might have a 12 year old on the 90' field in the Junior division. If he pitched his limit would be 85.

[Rich Ives]

Anything 90ft is going to be at least 95.

You might have a 12 year old on the 90' field in the Junior division. If he pitched his limit would be 85.

Exactly - which is why I kept saying it's age based not label based.

[mstaylor]

True but I have never seen a 12 on 90 ft so I never think about that.

[Rich Ives]

True but I have never seen a 12 on 90 ft so I never think about that.

In LL 12's are allowed to play juniors (once they start they can't go back) - you may have seen it without knowing it.

[mstaylor]

Nope, I have asked every year if any of the local leagues had let anybody move up, none have.

[dddunn3d]

Pitch count is based on the pitcher's age, not the label on the division. If the pitcher is 13-16 the limit is 95 (7-8 is 50; 9-10 is 75; 11-12 is 85; 17+ is 105). There are also age based rest requirements

You have an ineligible pitcher he is replaced upon discovery and the game is continued under protested per 4.19(d). There is no reset at the game. The protest committee will decide what to do. The official protest must be made before the umpires leave the field.

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

I don't have any LL rule books, etc. because I average 6 Jr-Sr LL games (all interleague) a year. Unless they're available somewhere on the interwebz, the arcane rules I let the local league(s) handle.

Interesting though, both coaches were obviously under the impression the pitch limit was 85.

If you're going to umpire LL you need LL rule books. Some of the "arcane" rules are important to know, and not just the pitching limits. Ask one of the leagues to provide one.

And given that LL is the largest youth BB org by far - maybe "arcane" isn't the best description of their rules.

Yes, I agree. A better adjective would be obtuse. :fuel:

[Rich Ives]

Pitch count is based on the pitcher's age, not the label on the division. If the pitcher is 13-16 the limit is 95 (7-8 is 50; 9-10 is 75; 11-12 is 85; 17+ is 105). There are also age based rest requirements

You have an ineligible pitcher he is replaced upon discovery and the game is continued under protested per 4.19(d). There is no reset at the game. The protest committee will decide what to do. The official protest must be made before the umpires leave the field.

Now to offend someone: The answers are right in the rule book. Reg VI and 4.19

I don't have any LL rule books, etc. because I average 6 Jr-Sr LL games (all interleague) a year. Unless they're available somewhere on the interwebz, the arcane rules I let the local league(s) handle.

Interesting though, both coaches were obviously under the impression the pitch limit was 85.

If you're going to umpire LL you need LL rule books. Some of the "arcane" rules are important to know, and not just the pitching limits. Ask one of the leagues to provide one.

And given that LL is the largest youth BB org by far - maybe "arcane" isn't the best description of their rules.

Yes, I agree. A better adjective would be obtuse.

Sorry you don't like the pretty straightforward pitcher safety rule. Perhaps another organization would fit your needs better.

[mstaylor]

Obtuse is definitely the wrong adjective. The pitch count is actually pretty well thought out. They are introducing system wide this year the 50/70 fields. Some of their rules may be eclectic, perhaps even capricious, but it works for them, I don't see a problem.

[dddunn3d]

Here's the real crux of the matter:

I'm currently taking doctorate-level statistics, and have decided on the idea that pitch count limits preclude pitcher injury. It has been well-argued that overuse is the prevelant progenitor of pitching injury, and from both my research and personal experience working with pitchers, I tend to agree with that assessement.

However, after several weeks of searching for any raw data collected for the last 15 years or so on pitching injury rates, I can only conclude:

1) I'm not looking in the right places for the data I seek;

2) Actual raw numbers, rates of injury, etc. has been collected only spordically;

3) Based on the descriptive stats I have found so far, the mere institution of pitching limts have been ineffective in actually reducing injury rates among pitchers (probably due to kids playing on more than just a single team at a time). However, there are more than just a few possible confounding factors yet to be untangled.

Anecdotally...

My grandmother grew up on a farm in Oklahoma in the way-back past. She once told me a little story about how her Dad hired a couple of hands that particularly busy summer when she was twelve; they were brothers, about 16-17 years old, and good-natured but fiercely competitive.

They always got their work done on-time, even as they engaged in the peculiar habit of throwing rocks at any targets they could find (i.e., fence posts/rails, trees, etc). They were always trying to best each other as to how far, or how hard, or how accurate they were. She said that when they weren't busy, they could always be found with a handful of pebbles in one hand and throwing them with the other. She didn't give it a second thought while she was growing-up on that farm, even though they had funny-sounding names.

It was only years later that she realized who those boys had turned out to be, mainly because of those funny-sounding names of theirs: Dizzy and Daffy.

[dddunn3d]

Obtuse is definitely the wrong adjective. The pitch count is actually pretty well thought out. They are introducing system wide this year the 50/70 fields. Some of their rules may be eclectic, perhaps even capricious, but it works for them, I don't see a problem.

I am glad that LL, being by far the largest youth BB org, has finally decided to implement an intermediate-size field. When my own son back in the day was going from 46/60 to 60/90, the Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth program he was in had their intermediate field for 13 year olds at 54/75. In my estimation, it kept 35-40% of the players that otherwise would have given up involved in the game that extra year.

[BRUMP]

Obtuse is definitely the wrong adjective. The pitch count is actually pretty well thought out. They are introducing system wide this year the 50/70 fields. Some of their rules may be eclectic, perhaps even capricious, but it works for them, I don't see a problem.

I am glad that LL, being by far the largest youth BB org, has finally decided to implement an intermediate-size field. When my own son back in the day was going from 46/60 to 60/90, the Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth program he was in had their intermediate field for 13 year olds at 54/75. In my estimation, it kept 35-40% of the players that otherwise would have given up involved in the game that extra year.

+1