Another Obstruction Question

[JamesC]

R1, R2, 1 out. Batter hits easy double to right center. R2 rounds 3rd but runs into 3rd baseman. BU signals DDB for obstruction, but R2 isn't paying attention to umpire and no longer thinks he can make it home so goes back to 3rd. However, R1 doesn't realize R2 came back to 3rd and is about 3/4 way to 3rd. Ball reaches infield and R1 is tagged out.

Now, would you get the out and give R2 the plate (for OBS) or would you give R2 the plate, R1 2nd base, and BR 1st? I'm thinking the latter part, but want to clarify.

[mstaylor]

Get the out and award home. Now you have pissed off both coaches. The obstruction is an easy award but even obstructed, the runners have to run the bases correctly. Now if the trail runner returned to second because of the lead runner returning to third then you could advance him to third if you believe he would have made it absent the obstruction. You may not want to say this to the coach but obstruction doesn't excuse stupid baserunning.

[JamesC]

So even though R1 would have most likely easily made it to 3rd without R2 being obstructed, you still get the out on him? I wasn't expecting this answer but I'm glad I got it cleared up. Been thinking about this for a few days now! Probably won't ever happen, but if/when it does I'll be ready now!

[mstaylor]

Sure, no matter if the defense screws up, the runners still have to run bases correctly.

[Guest]

R1, R2, 1 out. Batter hits easy double to right center. R2 rounds 3rd but runs into 3rd baseman. BU signals DDB for obstruction, but R2 isn't paying attention to umpire and no longer thinks he can make it home so goes back to 3rd. However, R1 doesn't realize R2 came back to 3rd and is about 3/4 way to 3rd. Ball reaches infield and R1 is tagged out.

Now, would you get the out and give R2 the plate (for OBS) or would you give R2 the plate, R1 2nd base, and BR 1st? I'm thinking the latter part, but want to clarify.

You can do whatever you want to nullify the act of the OBS.

If it truly is an "easy double" there is no way anyone would be expecting R2 not to score. If its an "easy double", R1 is probably rounding 2B hard because he may have a chance to score.

It is definitely not out of the question to score R2 and give R1 3rd.

[Mr Umpire]

The only way an out would be gotten is if the umpire judges R1 would have been out minus the OBS. If he turns around b/c of R2 returning and the umpire was going to give R2 HP, getting an out on R1 would be the perfect sh**storm possible. DM is upset b/c R2 is scored due to OBS call. OM is upset b/c R1 is called out b/c he turned around due to the OBS. And, your partner is looking at you like "What were thinking about when calling that out".

If R1 turns around b/c of the OBS, no out is to be awarded. It is not stupid baserunning. Nullifying the out and advancing R1 to 3B sounds like that is what would have happened if OBS didn't occur. And, if BR stops b/c he saw R1 returning and would have made 2B easily, award hm 2B b/c that is what may have happened if OBS didn't occur.

As described, I would have R2 scoring, R1 is now R3, and BR is R2. No outs. Now, you just have to deal with the DM and that is easier. OBS and in my judgment this is how the play would have gone and he has no more argument at that point. He can protest and still lose due to umpire judgment and proper rule application.

The only way R1 gets out on this play is if the umpire is not going to score R2 or R1 gets tagged before he reaches 3B and the OBS didn't affect his running in any way. There are a lot of variables to this and no clear answer can be given. The bottom line is the umpire must place runners and allow outs only where the OBS did not affect what happened.

[mstaylor]

I understand your argument but I disagree. If the lead runner holds at third becuse of obstruction, I am giving him home. However, that doesn't mean the trail runners can run at will and be free of being put out. Same situation and R1 stops at second and the BR stops at first then I certainly am giving them third and second.

[Mr Umpire]

Disregard this post in its entirety. Misread the OP and was arguing from the wrong standpoint.

[UmpTTS43]

R1, R2, 1 out. Batter hits easy double to right center. R2 rounds 3rd but runs into 3rd baseman. BU signals DDB for obstruction, but R2 isn't paying attention to umpire and no longer thinks he can make it home so goes back to 3rd. However, R1 doesn't realize R2 came back to 3rd and is about 3/4 way to 3rd. Ball reaches infield and R1 is tagged out.

Now, would you get the out and give R2 the plate (for OBS) or would you give R2 the plate, R1 2nd base, and BR 1st? I'm thinking the latter part, but want to clarify.

Since we can only work with what we are provided, from the OP, it seems that R1's actions are independent of R2's actions. R1 doesn't realize R2 is on third and is tagged out 20 ft. from the base. You can get the out here since it was R1's actions, in which the OBS had no bearing. If R1 had reached third, then retreated towards second due to R2 staying at third, you can award bases.

From the OP, if I judged R2 would have made it home, I would award it, R1 out, and BR is where he is. It is very possible that I could keep R2 at third.

FWIW, what does "easy double" mean? Easy for the BR, for R1, for all. If R1 was tagged out 20+ft. away from third, it wasn't an easy double for him.

[Mr Umpire]

R1, R2, 1 out. Batter hits easy double to right center. R2 rounds 3rd but runs into 3rd baseman. BU signals DDB for obstruction, but R2 isn't paying attention to umpire and no longer thinks he can make it home so goes back to 3rd. However, R1 doesn't realize R2 came back to 3rd and is about 3/4 way to 3rd. Ball reaches infield and R1 is tagged out.

Now, would you get the out and give R2 the plate (for OBS) or would you give R2 the plate, R1 2nd base, and BR 1st? I'm thinking the latter part, but want to clarify.

Since we can only work with what we are provided, from the OP, it seems that R1's actions are independent of R2's actions. R1 doesn't realize R2 is on third and is tagged out 20 ft. from the base. You can get the out here since it was R1's actions, in which the OBS had no bearing. If R1 had reached third, then retreated towards second due to R2 staying at third, you can award bases.

From the OP, if I judged R2 would have made it home, I would award it, R1 out, and BR is where he is. It is very possible that I could keep R2 at third.

FWIW, what does "easy double" mean? Easy for the BR, for R1, for all. If R1 was tagged out 20+ft. away from third, it wasn't an easy double for him.

Thanks for reposting the OP. When I read it, I must have jumped to the conclusion that R1 was affected by the OBS. Now, after rereading it, it does sound like R1 was not affected by the OBS. Which is what I have been adding to my posts at least.

So, based on that, R1 is out since his actions were not affected by R2 returning to 3B.

[mazzamouth]

R1, R2, 1 out. Batter hits easy double to right center. R2 rounds 3rd but runs into 3rd baseman. BU signals DDB for obstruction, but R2 isn't paying attention to umpire and no longer thinks he can make it home so goes back to 3rd. However, R1 doesn't realize R2 came back to 3rd and is about 3/4 way to 3rd. Ball reaches infield and R1 is tagged out.

Now, would you get the out and give R2 the plate (for OBS) or would you give R2 the plate, R1 2nd base, and BR 1st? I'm thinking the latter part, but want to clarify.

James is the DDB mechanic a Fed thing.. it is retard if so.. just Point and say "that's Obstruction"

[mstaylor]

Yes, it is a Fed thing. One that I have never used or taught.

[Don]

R1, R2, 1 out. Batter hits easy double to right center. R2 rounds 3rd but runs into 3rd baseman. BU signals DDB for obstruction, but R2 isn't paying attention to umpire and no longer thinks he can make it home so goes back to 3rd. However, R1 doesn't realize R2 came back to 3rd and is about 3/4 way to 3rd. Ball reaches infield and R1 is tagged out.

Now, would you get the out and give R2 the plate (for OBS) or would you give R2 the plate, R1 2nd base, and BR 1st? I'm thinking the latter part, but want to clarify.

You don't say on which side of 3b that F5 obstructs so I will assume on the 2b side (also don't say whether we are talking FED or OBR). Assuming OBR for now, he is awarded 3b, unless you feel he could have made it home then you can award home. If you do award home, but that would be a pretty advanced assumption, if he went back to 3b. If he advanced and got thrown out by a step you have better evidence. If FED and on home side of 3b he is awarded home.

R1 has no bearing on this play. If he is tagged out between 2nd and 3rd he is out. F1 has no claim to 2b or 3b and is simply tagged out between. FED or OBR, result is same for R1.

[grayhawk]

To add a little more to the conversation about R1:

Page 39 of 2011 BRD: AO 6-34: Evans: Following obstruction, a trailing runner is awarded the next base if he is at least halfway to that base at the time of the obstruction.

Now, it says nothing about the trailing runner being tagged out on the play, and no mention of type a or type b, but in the OP, R1 was 3/4 the way to 3rd (not sure if he was there at the time of obstruction, or after R2 stopped and went back to 3rd). Food for thought.

[UmpTTS43]

To add a little more to the conversation about R1:

Page 39 of 2011 BRD: AO 6-34: Evans: Following obstruction, a trailing runner is awarded the next base if he is at least halfway to that base at the time of the obstruction.

Now, it says nothing about the trailing runner being tagged out on the play, and no mention of type a or type b, but in the OP, R1 was 3/4 the way to 3rd (not sure if he was there at the time of obstruction, or after R2 stopped and went back to 3rd). Food for thought.

I believe that interp applies when there is no play made on the runner and the ball is subsequently dead with the runner being inbetween bases. It clarifies where the runner inbetween bases should be placed.

[kcfan102]

When the ball is live, it's always delayed dead :)

[Pops]

Interesting situation and comments. What if R1 decided to continue to 3B and both runners are standing on the base, defense puts a tag on R1 when play ends. Now do you have R2 scoring because of the obstruction and R1 on 3B? Or is R1 out for occupying R2's base?

[celt62]

Why is the BU watching third and not all touches and OBS at first and second? Where the heck was the plate guy looking or doing?