Balls and Strikes; How far do you let a coach go?

[ump570]

I'm working 16U tournament semi-final. Both teams' pitchers are throwing great games until the 5th inning when the visiting team's pitcher has a meltdown. The kid just cannot find the plate. He's missing up, down, in, and out. At this point, I start to hear some chirping from coach in the dugout. "Come on Ump! That's a strike!" After two or three of these I take off my mask and say, "Coach, you know you can't argue balls and strikes. That's enough." Pitching change is made and the new pitcher gets the team out of tough inning. However, I notice that this is the same pitcher who just threw seven great innings in the previous game. Sure enough, the next inning this kid begins to struggle. He's probably thrown 150 pitches already between both games. He's missing with the curve ball up. It's got late break and it's crossing at the letters. I call ball. On others, it's breaking and missing the plate away. Well, here we go again with the coach. Coach says, "Come on ump! That curve ball was right down the middle!" Again, I remove my mask and tell him, "That pitch was easily a foot outside when it crossed, and you can't see outside pitches from the dugout anyway." He has to have the last word. Tells me it was a strike. I tell him, One more word on the strike zone and you may be watching the championship from the parking lot." Insists it was a strike. Woosh! Now the guy charges out of the dugout and tells me, "We pay a lot of money to play in these tournaments. You just don't understand. What, do you think your a big man now for tossing me?" I then tell coach, "I don't care if you paid a thousand bucks, there's nothing in that fee that allows you to argue balls and strikes." This is an experienced coach who's been doing this for years, how can he not know that you can't argue the strike zone?

[cyclonehokiece]

Once you warn, the next step if they repeat the behavior is ejection. Once you say "that's enough" anything else about the strike zone gets you the hook.

[Jocko]

HTBT, but as long as it's coming from the dugout and not over the top, I generally ignore. Personally, I'm not taking off my mask and addressing him verbally. If the need arises, I'll give him a hard look from behind the mask. That usually does the trick.

Have you read my post in "why is it my fault" thread? This is exactly what I was talking about.

[mstaylor]

Again, I remove my mask and tell him, "That pitch was easily a foot outside when it crossed, and you can't see outside pitches from the dugout anyway." He has to have the last word. Tells me it was a strike. I tell him, One more word on the strike zone and you may be watching the championship from the parking lot."

None of this conversation should happen, simply insert,"That's enough!" That is one warning more than you need to give him but if you feel like being nice he can have the second one. ANYTHING out of his mouth except yes sir and he is gone. Never get in a pissing match, this is unseemly, even if you're right. Way too much talking, and you had three toss points after the initial warning. You gave him his warning at,"That's enough!"

Here's what should happen:

1st pitcher struggles, manager starts chirping. First crack ignore, second turn and stare at his dugout or coach's box. At three, take your mask off, hold up your hand in a stopsign and say,"That's enough!" Technically at this point he is on notice to be tossed.

Pitching change, pitcher struggles, manager starts chirping. Now if you are trying to not throw him, give him a second very firm,"Enough!" The next whine, bang, gone!

Save all the paragraphs of back and forth between you, let him know he has reached the line, then get rid of him.

[Guest]

Well at this point, it sounds like if the team that was chirping continued along their path, they may not have advanced to the championship game. It's entirely possible he was trying to work you over to buy a strike here or there fully knowing he may push to far and get himself run, which would provide a "fire up the troops" oppourtunity.

Lots of guys will advocate nothing more than "that`s enough" and a stop sign and I'm sure they will post accordingly. That is the most basic form of handling this and it may very well work for them. But that isn't how I roll, I've worked with plenty of guys who've been in the game and that's not how they roll, and if that's not how you want to roll, that's fine.

IMO

1) You were too quick to remove the mask. If I take my mask off because someone's bitching at balls and strikes, someone's about to go. It shouldn`t be something that occurs frequently. We all get chirped at occasionally about the zone, but rarely does someone need to go from the dugout over it. There's a four step continuum for this kind of thing that is widely advocated: ignore, ackowledge, warn, eject. The first time the guy pops off, maybe even the second, I'm gonna ignore it. When I decide it`s time to enter step 2, I`ll give a look over and do something according to the situation and my temperment...if it`s innocent, I may just make eye contact with whoever is yapping and shake my head. If it`s more exaggerated, I may give a long look over, put my hands on my hips, maybe even square up to the dugout and look right in.

2) Once I`ve gotten there, if I hear the something else I'm obviously supposed to hear, I`d progress to phase 3. The reaction should match theirs. If they`re kind of pacing around the bench and it`s a reserved objection, you don`t have to shut them down as assertively compared to if they were up on the top step of the dugout yelling it at you. If they're reserved in their complaint, you could warn on any level similar to a casual glance over, mask-on, and say something like "come on now, don`t go there." The last thing you want is to have quiet protest coming out of a bench and be escalating the situation with how you deliver your warning. Note also that if they retort to this in an argumentative manner and you feel a need to respond to that retort (IE "I'll stop going there when you call that"), unless it's egregious, warn them one more time, stronger, before you run them.

On the other hand, if they're on the top step, then match fire with fire. Mask off, firm, borderline yelling but fully in control taking at least one step over but never leaving the plate area "hey, knock it off!" And then right away turn back around and go back to the plate. This way, if he pops off and you elect to eject him, it's clear to everyone in the park that you were walking away and he said "the magic words" after your message was delivered (and ignored).

3) Never, ever say "one more word and..." or threaten "you'll be watching the championship game from the parking lot..." The "you can't see that pitch from over there" or similar is something you don't want to be saying. I don't mind the "all the money in the world" comment but be aware, if you choose to shoot back at someone who is yapping at you, never ever say something to them that would get them into trouble if they said to you.

Here's how I would've handled your sitch:

1) 1st time "Come on Ump! That's a strike!" - IGNORE

2) 2rd time "Come on Ump! That's a strike!" - Look over, shake head 'no'

3) 3rd time "Come on Ump! That's a strike!" - A) if during the same at bat, skip to 4). B) if during a different at bat: Look over, mask on, "No, that's outside. Leave it alone."

4) "Come on ump! That curve ball was right down the middle!" - mask off, two or three steps over, "(first name of manager), I told you (if you didn't skip #3), leave it alone. Enough!" turn and walk away.

5) Subsequent comment - EJ

6) Proceed 20 feet up the foul line opposite of his dugout, take out line-up card and note the ejection and other relevant information while waiting for him to leave.

[Jocko]

Well at this point, it sounds like if the team that was chirping continued along their path, they may not have advanced to the championship game. It's entirely possible he was trying to work you over to buy a strike here or there fully knowing he may push to far and get himself run, which would provide a "fire up the troops" oppourtunity.

Lots of guys will advocate nothing more than "that`s enough" and a stop sign and I'm sure they will post accordingly. That is the most basic form of handling this and it may very well work for them. But that isn't how I roll, I've worked with plenty of guys who've been in the game and that's not how they roll, and if that's not how you want to roll, that's fine.

IMO

1) You were too quick to remove the mask. If I take my mask off because someone's bitching at balls and strikes, someone's about to go. It shouldn`t be something that occurs frequently. We all get chirped at occasionally about the zone, but rarely does someone need to go from the dugout over it. There's a four step continuum for this kind of thing that is widely advocated: ignore, ackowledge, warn, eject. The first time the guy pops off, maybe even the second, I'm gonna ignore it. When I decide it`s time to enter step 2, I`ll give a look over and do something according to the situation and my temperment...if it`s innocent, I may just make eye contact with whoever is yapping and shake my head. If it`s more exaggerated, I may give a long look over, put my hands on my hips, maybe even square up to the dugout and look right in.

2) Once I`ve gotten there, if I hear the something else I'm obviously supposed to hear, I`d progress to phase 3. The reaction should match theirs. If they`re kind of pacing around the bench and it`s a reserved objection, you don`t have to shut them down as assertively compared to if they were up on the top step of the dugout yelling it at you. If they're reserved in their complaint, you could warn on any level similar to a casual glance over, mask-on, and say something like "come on now, don`t go there." The last thing you want is to have quiet protest coming out of a bench and be escalating the situation with how you deliver your warning. Note also that if they retort to this in an argumentative manner and you feel a need to respond to that retort (IE "I'll stop going there when you call that"), unless it's egregious, warn them one more time, stronger, before you run them.

On the other hand, if they're on the top step, then match fire with fire. Mask off, firm, borderline yelling but fully in control taking at least one step over but never leaving the plate area "hey, knock it off!" And then right away turn back around and go back to the plate. This way, if he pops off and you elect to eject him, it's clear to everyone in the park that you were walking away and he said "the magic words" after your message was delivered (and ignored).

3) Never, ever say "one more word and..." or threaten "you'll be watching the championship game from the parking lot..." The "you can't see that pitch from over there" or similar is something you don't want to be saying. I don't mind the "all the money in the world" comment but be aware, if you choose to shoot back at someone who is yapping at you, never ever say something to them that would get them into trouble if they said to you.

Here's how I would've handled your sitch:

1) 1st time "Come on Ump! That's a strike!" - IGNORE

2) 2rd time "Come on Ump! That's a strike!" - Look over, shake head 'no'

3) 3rd time "Come on Ump! That's a strike!" - A) if during the same at bat, skip to 4). B) if during a different at bat: Look over, mask on, "No, that's outside. Leave it alone."

4) "Come on ump! That curve ball was right down the middle!" - mask off, two or three steps over, "(first name of manager), I told you (if you didn't skip #3), leave it alone. Enough!" turn and walk away.

5) Subsequent comment - EJ

6) Proceed 20 feet up the foul line opposite of his dugout, take out line-up card and note the ejection and other relevant information while waiting for him to leave.

Nicely done! You can sit by me

[ump570]

Thanks for the input guys. This is really helpful. Generally, the chirping doesn't bother me, but it got to the point that whenever a strike wasn't called, there was loud chirping from not only the coach but from players as well. Plus, this dugout was very close to home plate, and the coach was right on top of me, and he hadn't sat there the entire game until he started having problems with the zone. It clearly seemed he was trying to make a show of his displeasure. There was also gesturing and attitude from the pitcher to go along with it. The funny thing was, the game before when his kid pitched the game of his life, the coach was thrilled with my zone. It wasn't until his kid's struggled that I began to hear it. Typical double standard.

[Guest]

Thanks for the input guys. This is really helpful. Generally, the chirping doesn't bother me, but it got to the point that whenever a strike wasn't called, there was loud chirping from not only the coach but from players as well. Plus, this dugout was very close to home plate, and the coach was right on top of me, and he hadn't sat there the entire game until he started having problems with the zone. It clearly seemed he was trying to make a show of his displeasure. There was also gesturing and attitude from the pitcher to go along with it. The funny thing was, the game before when his kid pitched the game of his life, the coach was thrilled with my zone. It wasn't until his kid's struggled that I began to hear it. Typical double standard.

Never, ever let a pitcher show you up from on the mound.

If you can, send the catcher out with instructions to cut the theatrics. If he really shows you up, cut out the middle man and deliver the message not-so-subtly yourself. Repetition = ejection.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Thanks for the input guys. This is really helpful. Generally, the chirping doesn't bother me, but it got to the point that whenever a strike wasn't called, there was loud chirping from not only the coach but from players as well. Plus, this dugout was very close to home plate, and the coach was right on top of me, and he hadn't sat there the entire game until he started having problems with the zone. It clearly seemed he was trying to make a show of his displeasure. There was also gesturing and attitude from the pitcher to go along with it. The funny thing was, the game before when his kid pitched the game of his life, the coach was thrilled with my zone. It wasn't until his kid's struggled that I began to hear it. Typical double standard.

Never, ever let a pitcher show you up from on the mound.

If you can, send the catcher out with instructions to cut the theatrics. If he really shows you up, cut out the middle man and deliver the message not-so-subtly yourself. Repetition = ejection.

outstanding advice. I once had a HS pitcher (and Class-A prick, from the look of it) in a season-opening tournament that thought he could gesture and huff and stomp around on the mound. His catcher IMMEDIATELY went out to handle the situation. Two nights later, I had Mr Showman on the mound again. He threw his hands up again, to which F2 said "Oh, no...not this sh*t again. Be right back". He handled it quite quickly. Gotta love smart catchers !

[Jocko]

Thanks for the input guys. This is really helpful. Generally, the chirping doesn't bother me, but it got to the point that whenever a strike wasn't called, there was loud chirping from not only the coach but from players as well. Plus, this dugout was very close to home plate, and the coach was right on top of me, and he hadn't sat there the entire game until he started having problems with the zone. It clearly seemed he was trying to make a show of his displeasure. There was also gesturing and attitude from the pitcher to go along with it. The funny thing was, the game before when his kid pitched the game of his life, the coach was thrilled with my zone. It wasn't until his kid's struggled that I began to hear it. Typical double standard.

Never, ever let a pitcher show you up from on the mound.

If you can, send the catcher out with instructions to cut the theatrics. If he really shows you up, cut out the middle man and deliver the message not-so-subtly yourself. Repetition = ejection.

+5

[Jocko]

Thanks for the input guys. This is really helpful. Generally, the chirping doesn't bother me, but it got to the point that whenever a strike wasn't called, there was loud chirping from not only the coach but from players as well. Plus, this dugout was very close to home plate, and the coach was right on top of me, and he hadn't sat there the entire game until he started having problems with the zone. It clearly seemed he was trying to make a show of his displeasure. There was also gesturing and attitude from the pitcher to go along with it. The funny thing was, the game before when his kid pitched the game of his life, the coach was thrilled with my zone. It wasn't until his kid's struggled that I began to hear it. Typical double standard.

Never, ever let a pitcher show you up from on the mound.

If you can, send the catcher out with instructions to cut the theatrics. If he really shows you up, cut out the middle man and deliver the message not-so-subtly yourself. Repetition = ejection.

outstanding advice. I once had a HS pitcher (and Class-A prick, from the look of it) in a season-opening tournament that thought he could gesture and huff and stomp around on the mound. His catcher IMMEDIATELY went out to handle the situation. Two nights later, I had Mr Showman on the mound again. He threw his hands up again, to which F2 said "Oh, no...not this sh*t again. Be right back". He handled it quite quickly. Gotta love smart catchers !

right on

[mstaylor]

You do have to love a catcher that knows how to work with you. Now, ump24's method works, and it really depends on the game, I prefer much less conversation. If it is mild chirping, normal every day crap, I just ignore period. If it becomes prolonged, more insistent or just louder, I am shutting it down. I do basically the same four step process, the conversation is just less. Knock it off works for some, I just don't like it for me. I prefer, that's enough! A second warning if I use one is simply a single, enough! One really important thing to remember about game management is it is different for every umpire. An umpire's age, personality and experience, plus game flow, manager's traits and numerous other things all play into how you handle a situation.

We can give you guidelines and the benefit of our experience, then you have to take that information and apply it to your style and games. There are some excellent umpires here that can tell what works for them, but even more important what doesn't work for anybody.

[BRUMP]

An umpire's age, personality and experience, plus game flow, manager's traits and numerous other things all play into how you handle a situation.

I also believe the level of game being played should play a role in how you handle a situation.

[Stan W.]

Thanks for the input guys. This is really helpful. Generally, the chirping doesn't bother me, but it got to the point that whenever a strike wasn't called, there was loud chirping from not only the coach but from players as well. Plus, this dugout was very close to home plate, and the coach was right on top of me, and he hadn't sat there the entire game until he started having problems with the zone. It clearly seemed he was trying to make a show of his displeasure. There was also gesturing and attitude from the pitcher to go along with it. The funny thing was, the game before when his kid pitched the game of his life, the coach was thrilled with my zone. It wasn't until his kid's struggled that I began to hear it. Typical double standard.

Never, ever let a pitcher show you up from on the mound.

If you can, send the catcher out with instructions to cut the theatrics. If he really shows you up, cut out the middle man and deliver the message not-so-subtly yourself. Repetition = ejection.

outstanding advice. I once had a HS pitcher (and Class-A prick, from the look of it) in a season-opening tournament that thought he could gesture and huff and stomp around on the mound. His catcher IMMEDIATELY went out to handle the situation. Two nights later, I had Mr Showman on the mound again. He threw his hands up again, to which F2 said "Oh, no...not this sh*t again. Be right back". He handled it quite quickly. Gotta love smart catchers !

YUP that catcher is one of our kinda guys!...........clued in and proactive.........

[mstaylor]

An umpire's age, personality and experience, plus game flow, manager's traits and numerous other things all play into how you handle a situation.

I also believe the level of game being played should play a role in how you handle a situation.

Absolutely true. I knew I was missing some factors so I threw it under numerous other things. History with a coach can play into it. If you know he is a trouble manager, he still has to cross the line but that line might be a little closer. Or if you know he never says anything, he may get a longer leash. Game management is much more art than science.

[moblue]

I prefer to shut coaches down early. If you give them an inch they seem to want a mile. Earlier this week I had a fall ball game where a coach complained from the third base coach's box about a pitch being "a foot inside" (in the first inning). Usually I wouldn't answer unless it was looking/staring at him for a while in acknowledgement or giving him a warning. For some reason I pulled my mask off and engaged him. I basically said three sentences in the brief exchange between us, and he shut up for the rest of the game. Looking back I really can't believe I did that, but it was my third game of the day behind the plate, and it worked.

I don't advocate taking my course of action here, but it just goes to show that different things work in different situations.

[Dannytheman]

Lot's of great advice here. Depending upon the circumstance, I attempt to make the right move. I attempt to warn/remind them once.

[renegadewolf]

When the chirping reaches a level that it has become abundantly clear that coach is making a show of this, leaning over the fence and such, I choose to shut it down with a simple "are you arguing balls and strikes coach"? they make it very easy to deal with at that point because they either shut up on their own, or they shut up because they won't be involved in the rest of the game. I'm certainly not advocating this as a how to deal with the early stages of chirping, but as i mentioned once it becomes abundantly clear coach wants to be sure to make an issue of it, employ the rules, which are rather clear about arguing balls and strikes

[Don]

All good advice. Chirping from the dugout must be stopped and soon. Players in the dugout will take on the attitude of the coaching staff so if you want an epidemic on your hands give the coaches a long leash. Gestures from the mound must be stopped and soon.

The last ejections I had started with a pitcher complaining and ended with the HC complaining about the pitcher ejection. Both gone. Team did not have a smart catcher....