It's even cool when there isn't a play!

[Jocko]

If there's a trailing runner do you still rotate home? If so, does HP now have responsibility for R1 and/or R2? If not, then why rotate at all? HP still has to bust it back.

[umpire_scott]

Obviously if there's a trail runner then you don't. Look I don't know why FED has PU take the play at 3rd base either when it's a single runner. But my assumption would be so that you don't have to be running with the runner AND getting into a position to make the call. The PU can see the whole field and then react to and be already in position to make the call. The BU can do the same thing when he rotates to home. He gets there ahead of the play, rather than chasing the play.

[Jocko]

you missed my point . it's the same play with or without runners. if home plate can get back to the dish with runners on , why can't he get back without runners ? by the way I always take the runner from a to c. with no runners on I always pre game home plate stays at home even in the fed mechanics .

[JaxRolo]

Scott all you have to do is show us the manual where you are getting your mechanics. Even if it's the SUM-Scott's Umpires Manual

[UmpTTS43]

Shouldnt the plate ump take that call at 3rd from inside just for that reason?

No. The BU should take BR into 3rd.

[Welpe]

IMO, in most cases, if the BU is running with the runner into third, he did something wrong.

Use angles to your advantage and cut down the distance you have to travel between 2nd and 3rd.

[umpire_scott]

you missed my point . it's the same play with or without runners. if home plate can get back to the dish with runners on , why can't he get back without runners ? by the way I always take the runner from a to c. with no runners on I always pre game home plate stays at home even in the fed mechanics .

I'm not saying he can't. I've done games solo where I had no choice. Obviously with 2-man mechanics there are going to be situations where you do what is best, not what is perfect. FED mechanics have the PU taking a single runner at third. The association that I worked for in Arizona followed FED mechanics religiously. So we were always told to take the runner to 3rd. It was also expected that if the PU would take the runner to 3rd, that the BU would rotate home. Say what you will about it being incorrect, but that's how I did it in that game and I received praise from my scheduler/UIC for it. So they must have been of the mindset that is how it's done. On another post on this board someone indicated in South Carolina they allow umpires to call missing a base without an appeal. In Illinois, at least in the Metro East area it is absolutely expected and practiced that you hold your left fist out for OBS (this was also the expected mechanic in Arizona).

Why can't umpires on this board accept the fact that different areas and regions do things differently, and stop getting their rocks off insulting other umpires or calling them Smitty's? Don't you realize that you are making it difficult for other umpires? When your area or association expects and practices a certain mechanic, then umpires on this board insult you for using it, you then get reluctant to use it during games. Clearly not the purpose of the board. The board is supposed to HELP umpires. Some, but not all of you, need to remember that.

[umpire_scott]

Shouldnt the plate ump take that call at 3rd from inside just for that reason?

Scott wouldn't know that!

Scott does know that (when it's able to be done). It does not change the fact that you have to wait to make the call, and then turn and run back towards home. The BU will be able to react and head for home much sooner.

Show me any manual that shows that is an approved or regular mechanic.

FED Page 41 two-man mechanics. U2 #8 says "Be alert to either MOVE TO COVER HOME PLATE if U1 is at third base and there are no following runners or to take a following runner into third if U1 has a play at the plate, as in a bases-loaded situation.

Now of course Jax will just insult the FED mechanics book. Or you could show humility for once and admit that you are wrong.

[umpire_scott]

IMO, in most cases, if the BU is running with the runner into third, he did something wrong.

Use angles to your advantage and cut down the distance you have to travel between 2nd and 3rd.

Understood, but that's probably why FED has the PU take third. If the PU is taking 3rd they have ample time to get a good angle AND be close to the play. The closer you are to the play (without being too close of course), and the sooner you get there and come set, the better it looks.

[noumpere]

As I read the thread Scott, someone questioned where you went from the working area, I explained that it was allowed in some areas and on some diamonds and then you were the one who started defending your position as "better" without (or at least before) anyone attacking you. I find it funny given your first several posts here that you are now championing the cause of show some areas have different mechanics.

And, if I can make this coment without you calling it insulting or calling someone an Smitty -- FED mechanics are in many cases designed for the lowest common denominator umpire. Those where the BU cant make it to third on a triple or where PU cant be seen just standing around watching that happen or those where PU cant read the play in time to make it back home. OTher mechanics such as CCA and pro assume the umpires are in shape and reasonable fast and reasonably able to read plays. IT doesnt mean you shouldnt have FED mechanics (or something similar) or that mechanics shouldnt be adjusted to allow for the physical sklill limitations of some umpires.

[umpire_scott]

As I read the thread Scott, someone questioned where you went from the working area, I explained that it was allowed in some areas and on some diamonds and then you were the one who started defending your position as "better" without (or at least before) anyone attacking you. I find it funny given your first several posts here that you are now championing the cause of show some areas have different mechanics.

And, if I can make this coment without you calling it insulting or calling someone an Smitty -- FED mechanics are in many cases designed for the lowest common denominator umpire. Those where the BU cant make it to third on a triple or where PU cant be seen just standing around watching that happen or those where PU cant read the play in time to make it back home. OTher mechanics such as CCA and pro assume the umpires are in shape and reasonable fast and reasonably able to read plays. IT doesnt mean you shouldnt have FED mechanics (or something similar) or that mechanics shouldnt be adjusted to allow for the physical sklill limitations of some umpires.

What is wrong with defending my position as "better". I was taught that way, I've always done it that way, and I received praise for doing it that way. In my opinion, taking all umpires into consideration, the BU rotating to home is a better mechanic, than having the PU race up to third, and then race back home. It looks much smoother, in my opinion, to have BU rotate home. Some disagree with me and that is fine. I don't get angry and insult them or post icons of banging heads against walls when they disagree with me. I defended it without insulting anyone. I never asked someone if they've EVER been to a clinic. I never insulted someone by saying said clinic was a waste of their money. There is nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion. It is wrong however to refer to another umpire as a Smitty for following FED mechanics, when that is what their area emphasizes.

My question to you is why are not telling Jax that he was wrong? He's the one that insulted me as an umpire. Not just on this thread, but another one as well. He's the one that asked me to quote an umpires manual other than SUM for ANY MANUAL that teaches this mechanic. I did that. Which shows the guy that is insulting me and saying I either never attended a clinic or wasted my money on one, doesn't even know the FED umpires mechanics manual. Talk about the pot calling the kettle.

That being said I do recognize that many experienced umpires on this board do not respect the FED mechanics manual. I get that. But that does not change the fact that in Arizona all umpires received a FED Umpires manual each year when they registered. In Missouri I received the same thing. In summer tournaments I worked with other umpires many of them followed some of the FED mechanics. Like it or not, my association, or governing body is going to have more pull in which mechanics I use then some so-called experienced umpire from Alabama, Florida, or anywhere else for that matter. And I use so-called with all due respect. I don't know anyone on here, so I can only go by what they say of themselves.

[umpire_scott]

As I read the thread Scott, someone questioned where you went from the working area, I explained that it was allowed in some areas and on some diamonds and then you were the one who started defending your position as "better" without (or at least before) anyone attacking you. I find it funny given your first several posts here that you are now championing the cause of show some areas have different mechanics.

And, if I can make this coment without you calling it insulting or calling someone an Smitty -- FED mechanics are in many cases designed for the lowest common denominator umpire. Those where the BU cant make it to third on a triple or where PU cant be seen just standing around watching that happen or those where PU cant read the play in time to make it back home. OTher mechanics such as CCA and pro assume the umpires are in shape and reasonable fast and reasonably able to read plays. IT doesnt mean you shouldnt have FED mechanics (or something similar) or that mechanics shouldnt be adjusted to allow for the physical sklill limitations of some umpires.

A couple of other points.

1. I'm not sure what you meant by you find it funny after my first couple of posts that I'm championing the cause of show some areas have different mechanics.

2. I'm sure you can see the difference in what you wrote and what Jax wrote. You paragraph was not even mildly insulting. You explained something regarding how some umpires view FED mechanics. I would NEVER be insulted by what you wrote. But when someone gets personal and asks if I've ever attended a clinic. Makes sarcastic comments like "Scott wouldn't know that", and then challenges me to find any manual that teaches the mechanic I use, I can't see how any sane, logical person could not view that as insulting. Yet you seem to be defending him and accusing me of instigating it by simply defending my position. The only comment I made that could be taken as mildly insulting was when I said "you must be really slow on the bases". But that was sort of tongue in cheek. EVERYONE knows that NO ONE is just as fast in plate gear as they are without it. That just makes no sense. If that were the case then catchers would never change out when they came to hit. Plate gears is cumbersome, and does impact at least somewhat. your mobility.

[LMSANS]

Here we go again... :shakehead:

[umpire_scott]

Here we go again...

Just what I was thinking. It's sad that so many of these umpires on this board expect the posters to worship them to the point that when someone comes on here with an opinion they are vilified.

[noumpere]

Here we go again...

+1. I should of known it was a fools errand to even try.

[Jocko]

Scott, this is a DIRECT quote from post #24:

"I agree that as long as your association expects this and you pregame it, do it."

I have said NOTHING derogatory or insulting to you. I simply asked some what-ifs. Apparently, our mechanics aren't as Fed strict as yours in my HS association. I admit having thrown the NFHSUMM on a shelf and only skimming it. All that being said, if you do what you're instructed and is expcted, it looks like a well oiled machine on rotations.

Apology accepted ;)

[JaxRolo]

Scott, this is a DIRECT quote from post #24:

"I agree that as long as your association expects this and you pregame it, do it."

I have said NOTHING derogatory or insulting to you. I simply asked some what-ifs. Apparently, our mechanics aren't as Fed strict as yours in my HS association. I admit having thrown the NFHSUMM on a shelf and only skimming it. All that being said, if you do what you're instructed and is expcted, it looks like a well oiled machine on rotations.

Apology accepted

You are just trying to be nice! lol

[Jocko]

Scott, this is a DIRECT quote from post #24:

"I agree that as long as your association expects this and you pregame it, do it."

I have said NOTHING derogatory or insulting to you. I simply asked some what-ifs. Apparently, our mechanics aren't as Fed strict as yours in my HS association. I admit having thrown the NFHSUMM on a shelf and only skimming it. All that being said, if you do what you're instructed and is expcted, it looks like a well oiled machine on rotations.

Apology accepted

You are just trying to be nice! lol

make no mistake, I'm an a$$hole. Ask my wife.

[umpire_scott]

Scott, this is a DIRECT quote from post #24:

"I agree that as long as your association expects this and you pregame it, do it."

I have said NOTHING derogatory or insulting to you. I simply asked some what-ifs. Apparently, our mechanics aren't as Fed strict as yours in my HS association. I admit having thrown the NFHSUMM on a shelf and only skimming it. All that being said, if you do what you're instructed and is expcted, it looks like a well oiled machine on rotations.

Apology accepted

Trout,

I've had no problem with anything you've said in this thread.

[umpire_scott]

Let me issue an apology to anyone that commented on this thread whose name does not start with a J and end with an O. I was not offended by any of your comments. None of you personally attacked me. When I made general comments I was more speaking about other threads, not this one. The only comments on here that bothered me at all where the ones that questioned whether I've ever attended a clinic, the one that stated I wouldn't know that PU was supposed to try and get to the inside on a play at third, and the one that said if I did go to a clinic it was a waste of money. All these comments were inflammatory and over-the-top. The only problem I have with anyone else that didn't make those comments is for them not calling out those that do. They serve no useful purpose, and create these stupid threads that last forever. If I see someone attacking another poster in a way that I see no reason for it I will defend the person being attacked. I wish more of you would do the same. Maybe the flaming would decrease if that were to happen.

[UmpJM]

scott,

As a point of information, the only "recognized" (and I use the term loosely) mechanics manual that advocates the BU coming home from the working area behind the mound in the sitch you describe is the NFHS Umpire Manual. Now, if that's what your association (or other governing body) wants you to use, by all means do so.

However, the FED Umpire Manual hasn't been updated in over a decade, is a hopeless mishmash of bits and pieces of coverage and rotation recommendations, is ridiculously archaic, and was written by people who really don't know very much about umpiring mechanics.

ALL other umpire mechanics manuals - the PBUC 2 man mechanics manual, the CCA manual, the Jim Evans Maximizing manual, the IHSA 2-man mechanics PowerPoint - have the BU taking the runner all the way into 3B on a clean triple with no one on. With an R1 on base (and no R2), the PU would rotate to 3B for any play on the R1 at 3B, freeing the BU to cover the BR. Should there be an overthrow at 3B and the R1 attempts to score, the PU would take any play on him at home. The reason every other mechanics manual recommends these coverages is that they provide far superior coverage for the possible plays that could occur, given the limitations of the 2-man system.

Most people find the most useful application of the FED Umpire Manual is as a coaster for a beverage.

JM

[JaxRolo]

Let me issue an apology to anyone that commented on this thread whose name does not start with a J and end with an O. I was not offended by any of your comments. None of you personally attacked me. When I made general comments I was more speaking about other threads, not this one. The only comments on here that bothered me at all where the ones that questioned whether I've ever attended a clinic, the one that stated I wouldn't know that PU was supposed to try and get to the inside on a play at third, and the one that said if I did go to a clinic it was a waste of money. All these comments were inflammatory and over-the-top. The only problem I have with anyone else that didn't make those comments is for them not calling out those that do. They serve no useful purpose, and create these stupid threads that last forever. If I see someone attacking another poster in a way that I see no reason for it I will defend the person being attacked. I wish more of you would do the same. Maybe the flaming would decrease if that were to happen.

Let me call a Waaambulance for you!

Take a look at post #18 ! You were the one to first attack me by your slow comment. I just took it from there.

You get very defensive when anyone tries to give you some constructive criticism. A couple of guys commented on mine yet you didn't see me get defensive. There has been a few times where I stood my ground on certain points. Never attacked anyone.

I have been here for at least a couple of years and the only other person I have ever attacked has been Trout.

Be open to criticism without getting defensive. Come Home from he working area and you might become the best Umpire in your association but you'll never go far anywhere else.

By the way you can mention my name. My feelings won't get hurt!

[umpire_scott]

scott,

As a point of information, the only "recognized" (and I use the term loosely) mechanics manual that advocates the BU coming home from the working area behind the mound in the sitch you describe is the NFHS Umpire Manual. Now, if that's what your association (or other governing body) wants you to use, by all means do so.

However, the FED Umpire Manual hasn't been updated in over a decade, is a hopeless mishmash of bits and pieces of coverage and rotation recommendations, is ridiculously archaic, and was written by people who really don't know very much about umpiring mechanics.

ALL other umpire mechanics manuals - the PBUC 2 man mechanics manual, the CCA manual, the Jim Evans Maximizing manual, the IHSA 2-man mechanics PowerPoint - have the BU taking the runner all the way into 3B on a clean triple with no one on. With an R1 on base (and no R2), the PU would rotate to 3B for any play on the R1 at 3B, freeing the BU to cover the BR. Should there be an overthrow at 3B and the R1 attempts to score, the PU would take any play on him at home. The reason every other mechanics manual recommends these coverages is that they provide far superior coverage for the possible plays that could occur, given the limitations of the 2-man system.

Most people find the most useful application of the FED Umpire Manual is as a coaster for a beverage.

JM

JM,

I do understand the lack of respect of the FED manual. My desires and past experiences in umpiring are vastly different than some others that post on this board. I've never umpired anything above high school and have never really considered it. All of my training has been done by the AIA (Arizona Interscholastic Association). That is the high school governing body in Arizona. I've also attended clinics that were given by associations that I worked for in Arizona that scheduled for travel ball tournaments, little league, and other leagues (rec league, Babe Ruth, etc). Those clinics were run by the UIC's for the different associations, who were generally high school umpires. So I have never even seen any of the other manuals you speak of. When I moved to Missouri last August and joined MSHSAA, they sent me the FED rules book and FED umpires manual. No mention was made of using different mechanics. I've umpired across the river in Illinois and spoken with several high school umpires over there. It has been my impression that the vast majority of them use FED mechanics as well. I spoke with an umpire from Illinois that claimed to have been given high level high school assignments during the playoffs. When I asked him about the OBS mechanic he stated that it is not only an accepted mechanic, but it is emphasized (he said that the verbal was frowned upon because the players might react to it and stop thinking the ball was dead). So in my limited experience (3 states out of 50) FED mechanics are used. I'm not arguing or disputing anything you're saying. And if I was aspiring to work college or even higher, then I'm sure I would give more credence to using the FED manual as a coaster. But until then, it's the only manual I have.

[umpire_scott]

Let me issue an apology to anyone that commented on this thread whose name does not start with a J and end with an O. I was not offended by any of your comments. None of you personally attacked me. When I made general comments I was more speaking about other threads, not this one. The only comments on here that bothered me at all where the ones that questioned whether I've ever attended a clinic, the one that stated I wouldn't know that PU was supposed to try and get to the inside on a play at third, and the one that said if I did go to a clinic it was a waste of money. All these comments were inflammatory and over-the-top. The only problem I have with anyone else that didn't make those comments is for them not calling out those that do. They serve no useful purpose, and create these stupid threads that last forever. If I see someone attacking another poster in a way that I see no reason for it I will defend the person being attacked. I wish more of you would do the same. Maybe the flaming would decrease if that were to happen.

Let me call a Waaambulance for you!

Take a look at post #18 ! You were the one to first attack me by your slow comment. I just took it from there.

You get very defensive when anyone tries to give you some constructive criticism. A couple of guys commented on mine yet you didn't see me get defensive. There has been a few times where I stood my ground on certain points. Never attacked anyone.

I have been here for at least a couple of years and the only other person I have ever attacked has been Trout.

Be open to criticism without getting defensive. Come Home from he working area and you might become the best Umpire in your association but you'll never go far anywhere else.

By the way you can mention my name. My feelings won't get hurt!

No need for the waambulance. I can handle personal attacks quite fine on my own. If you equate my comment about being slow on the bases as being equivalent in it's negativity as yours then you are the one that needs the waaambulance. You made a ridiculous statement. No one is just as fast and mobile in full plate gear as they are in base gear. I simply made a sarcastic comment regarding your ludicrous statement. I didn't attack your umpiring ability. I didn't say that you are so bad you wasted your money on clinics. If you think that my comment warranted your three derogatory retorts then you took it as more offensive then it was meant to be.

I don't see anything constructive in your comments. If that is constructive criticism, then you'll have to alert me when you decide to insult me.

I don't know what you mean by "a couple of guys commented on mine". I saw no one comment about what you said. I saw on another thread regarding the IBB that you and Trout got pretty upset over people not agreeing with you.

[UmpJM]

Scott,

I'd encourage you to attend a "non-local" clinic when and if you get a chance.

You actually strike me as someone who cares about the quality of his umpiring.

Probably the most convenient quality umpire camp for where you live is the Mid-America Umpire camp held in Springfield, MO in the fall. I haven't been (yet), but I know some people who have who speak very highly of the instruction there. It can really open your eyes to get out of the local scene and get a more "national" perspective - plus, you'll learn a lot regardless of your experience level.

Just a thought.

JM