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Balk Question


umpire_scott
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So this is going to be a little difficult to describe, but I'll do my best. I had a pitcher who when coming to a set would alter his motion. Sometimes he would come set at the top. But it was the type where he would very slowly come to a pause. It was debatable whether he was ever actually completely set, but because there was so little movement I was considering it a set and then letting it go. Then after coming set he would come down to his waist with the hands still together and do a change of direction bounce, but clearly not stop. Now other times he would do a similar motion but he would pause at the waist. So sometimes he was almost stopping at the top then almost stopping again.

I just had a real difficult time deciding whether to balk him or not. I also would have a tough time justifying it because if I called him for two sets, they could argue that he never stopped at the top. The pitcher doesn't have any responsibility to maintain a consistent motion does he? I don't believe he was using it for any deceptive purpose, but simply had sloppy mechanics.

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scott,

First, you are correct, there is no requirement that the pitcher use the same or similar motion from one pitch to the next, even if he is "mixing it up" for the purpose of deceiving the runner. Pitchers do that all the time, and it is perfectly legal. He can "come set" high one time, low the next, and in the middle next time. (Note that in FED rules, if he chooses to set "high", some part of his glove/hand must be below the bottom of his chin.)

Also, if a pitcher comes set "high" or "middle", it is perfectly legal for him to initiate his delivery by dropping his hands "low" and "bouncing" at the bottom prior to separating his hands and delivering the pitch.

What IS required is that he come to a complete and discernible stop exactly once before delivering a pitch. He may do this very briefly on one pitch and pause for a few seconds on the next. Again, perfectly legal.

Ultimately, this is a matter of umpire judgment as to whether his stop was "complete and discernible". If YOU, as the umpire, did not see him come to a complete stop, then he has balked, and you should call it. If you, as the umpire see "...so little movement I was considering it a set and then letting it go. ...", you have failed to call the balk the pitcher committed.

If he comes to a set both high and low on the same delivery, he has "double set" and it is also a balk.

They can "argue" all they want (well, technically, it's against the rules, but you know what I mean), but just because the pitcher or his coach "thinks" he stopped exactly once, if the umpire didn't see it that way, it didn't happen that way for all practical intents and purposes.

If you are not sure he stopped, and you were watching carefully, I would encourage you to go ahead and call the balk. Because that means it was not a "discernible" stop.

Also, I would encourage you to remove "deception" from your thinking on calling balks. It rarely comes into play. (Yes, I know what it says in the rules.)

JM

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I've noticed that in the pros they are not calling the double set, I am guessing, however, that if you double set you need to double set every time.

The difficulty is when the pitcher does not double set and tries to pick on the initial set as that is actually legal. It's the double set that would now get the balk. Seems odd that you might tend to let the double set go and then eventually call it.

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I've noticed that in the pros they are not calling the double set, I am guessing, however, that if you double set you need to double set every time.

The difficulty is when the pitcher does not double set and tries to pick on the initial set as that is actually legal. It's the double set that would now get the balk. Seems odd that you might tend to let the double set go and then eventually call it.

Why ? The rule books requires a pitcher, from the set position, to come to come to A stop, not multiple stops. If he sets twice on every pitch with runners on, he is balking every pitch.

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I haven't noticed this at the pro level but will look for it. It seems patently unfair if they are allowing it, even if done "all the time." If a coach wants a straight steal with a slower runner, he'll often tell the runner to go on "first move" (with a RHP) which means the first move after the set. If a pitcher double sets, that runner is dead and that's a completely illegal move.

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If a coach wants a straight steal with a slower runner, he'll often tell the runner to go on "first move" (with a RHP) which means the first move after the set. If a pitcher double sets, that runner is dead and that's a completely illegal move.

Going on first move is always a risk because the first move could legally be a pick, not a pitch. If it's on first move it doesn't matter if the pitcher was going to do another set because the runner's already on the run. If the runner's on the run the pitcher is going to pick or pitch immediately, not come to a second set.

Other than that - nice try.

Your job is not to make life safe for baserunners. It's to make the pitchers follow the rules.

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Rich, the rules do say he can only come set once. I'd go grab the rule but you no doubt know it already. I'm not saying it's our job to protect the baserunner, just trying to illustrate why we can't look the other way because he "does it every time."

Would you really argue that coming set twice doesn't create an illegal advantage for a pitcher?

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Rich, the rules do say he can only come set once.

Actually Im not sure they do say that (in the rules and not in some interp). They do say come set. And they say any motion associated with the pitch commits him to pitch and they say a feint to first is a balk. But if someone were to argue that it wasnt one of those two things then they'd have some sort of argument just based on the rules. (At least I hope I'm remembering this correctly - it was one of the first weird rules I seem to recall learning).

And it is true that in the bigs that there does seem to be a double set that seems to be allowed because all the participants know what is going on. Not that this means this is how we should do it at the less-than-bigs level.

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I'll freely admit that I may be wrong in my reading of this, since Rich is usually on top of this stuff but this is from the FED case book:

6.1.3 SITUATION F

With R1 on second (a) F1 stretches and comes to a stop, or ( B) he stretches a second time and comes to a stop. In both (a) and ( B), he then steps toward third and throws there in an effort to put out R1 who is attempting to steal.

RULING: Legal in (a), provided F1 did not start a pitch after coming set. In ( B), the umpire shall declare the ball dead as soon as the second stretch occurs. R1 is awarded third on balk by F1.

Isn't situation B the double set that we are talking about?

Stupid emoticons. The smiles are all supposed to be "B"s.

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Watch Clayton Kershaw pitch. He comes way high "sort of" pauses, then he brings his hands down and sets. What he does at the top I've seen many umpires determine is enough of a pause to be allowed as a set. I would probably allow it as a set. Which would mean he is double setting. The pitcher in the OP that I was talking about was similar except he wasn't pausing way up high. It was more around the chin area.

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I'll freely admit that I may be wrong in my reading of this, since Rich is usually on top of this stuff but this is from the FED case book:

6.1.3 SITUATION F

With R1 on second (a) F1 stretches and comes to a stop, or ( B) he stretches a second time and comes to a stop. In both (a) and ( B), he then steps toward third and throws there in an effort to put out R1 who is attempting to steal.

RULING: Legal in (a), provided F1 did not start a pitch after coming set. In ( B), the umpire shall declare the ball dead as soon as the second stretch occurs. R1 is awarded third on balk by F1.

Isn't situation B the double set that we are talking about?

Stupid emoticons. The smiles are all supposed to be "B"s.

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Rich, the rules do say he can only come set once. I'd go grab the rule but you no doubt know it already. I'm not saying it's our job to protect the baserunner, just trying to illustrate why we can't look the other way because he "does it every time."

Would you really argue that coming set twice doesn't create an illegal advantage for a pitcher?

All I said was that going on first move is risky and what the pitcher's response would be. Whether or not he double-sets does NOT affect going on first move.

If a pitcher does it all the time you know it and don't go in the first move from the first set.

Or do you think runners (but not pitchers) are copmplete idiots?

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All I said was that going on first move is risky and what the pitcher's response would be. Whether or not he double-sets does NOT affect going on first move.

If a pitcher does it all the time you know it and don't go in the first move from the first set.

Or do you think runners (but not pitchers) are copmplete idiots?

What if he sets a third time?

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All I said was that going on first move is risky and what the pitcher's response would be. Whether or not he double-sets does NOT affect going on first move.

If a pitcher does it all the time you know it and don't go in the first move from the first set.

Or do you think runners (but not pitchers) are copmplete idiots?

What if he sets a third time?

Rich would then argue don't go on the second stop (I think).

As to the OP, it appears that the pitcher would come set, then drop his hands to his waist (a) while continuing to the plate in some instances and ( B) stop at the waist in others THEN go to the plate.

legal in (a), balk in ( B)

I had a similar situation in a game a couple years ago, where the pitcher would come to a set, then as he goes to the plate, go into a deep knee bend before stepping toward the plate. Which was fine by me, but the initiation of the deep knee bend was going to be, for me, the start of his motion TO THE PLATE. He loaded the bases and went to 3rd to pick the runner at 3d from that deep knee bend. BALK!

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I had a similar situation in a game a couple years ago, where the pitcher would come to a set, then as he goes to the plate, go into a deep knee bend before stepping toward the plate. Which was fine by me, but the initiation of the deep knee bend was going to be, for me, the start of his motion TO THE PLATE. He loaded the bases and went to 3rd to pick the runner at 3d from that deep knee bend. BALK!

Interesting. Would you do the same with a left handed pitcher on a move to first?

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Only if he did it every time.

Is it really such a hard concept that you need to learn the pitcher's indicators and go with them? Players have to do that. Shouldn't you?

It's not a hard concept; it's just not clear that it's the right standard for judging this case.

If he usually sets twice, and then he sets once and goes home, do you call a balk? Under what rule?

Luis Tiant is an interesting example of what MLB allowed.

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If YOU see a balk, call it. If you have to think about it, let it go. Don't hunt for them, but don't ignore them either. If he does it every time or not is irrelevant. Just means he balks every time, or is legal every time.

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Trout, I don't disagree with you but I'm not sure that theory is relevant to this discussion. I've had pitchers who clearly stop twice, once at the chin and once at the waist, and I'm not being picky, these are solid one second stops.

My question (as was asked earlier) is simple, if you decide two clear stops is OK if done every time, what do you do when he blows through the second stop? That's gotta be a balk, right? But under which rule? If it's not a balk, your runner's never gonna get a secondary lead because they are "waiting for the second set." But if I call a balk for no set, the DC is going to say "what do you mean he didn't set, he held it as his chin for 2 seconds." I can't say "he changed his motion" because that's not the rule.

Rich, I don't know what's with the aggressive comments here on this issue. At least for me, I'm just trying to make sure that I get the call right if/when it comes up. I would think that coaches like you would want umpires to be sure that they understand stuff like this. I don't "hunt for balks" or think "runners are idiots" but my job is to enforce the rules. I've had this very situation occur and although your take might be to just let it go, what do I do when the OC starts hollering for a balk?

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