Windup position

[jjskitours]

Assume bases loaded. The pitcher steps on the rubber with both arms at his side, gets the sign and brings both hands together and stops / pauses, glances towards 3rd and starts his delivery. I interpret this to be legal under MLB rules, but a balk under FED rules which only allows one hand at side and bringing of both hand together and stopping. Am I correct? If so, can I assume you would call it?

[scrounge]

sounds fine under FED to me....you can have both hands together in the windup. Depends on just how it's done, but unless you see the bringing the hands together as the start of the actual pitching motion then I don't see a problem here.

[BT_Blue]

I believe that JJ is right. However I have never seen this called. I think this is another one of those cases of a rule that is in the book but has been accepted as archaic and is no longer called.

[Jimurray]

sounds fine under FED to me....you can have both hands together in the windup. Depends on just how it's done, but unless you see the bringing the hands together as the start of the actual pitching motion then I don't see a problem here.

It's not ok by rule and caseplay but not called (appropriately so IMHO) in my neck of the woods. We have never had a complaint but if there was one we would probably have one arm leading the other.

[noumpere]

If he moves both hands at the same time to join them then this is interpeted in HS as a motion associated with the pitch so the pause is a balk. But he can move 1 hand stop and then move the other to join and now its legal. While it seems like a silly rule without it coaches would instruct theor pitcher to try to make the arm movement (only) to look like the pitch and get the runners to move and then step off and pick.

[jjskitours]

I thought so too, but can't find any case book situation that specifically says that bringing both hands starting from the side together simutaneously is the start of the pitching motion and that any pause would be a balk. I know there are plenty of examples of the one hand up and bringing the 2nd hand together, but nothing specifically on bringing both hands up together at same time. If I'm missing something, please give me the reference.

[mstaylor]

I have always been taught that two body parts equals TOP in Fed. According to 6.1.2c, bringing both hands together and stopping after he has gotten his sign is legal. This is contrary to everything I understood about the wind-up in Fed. Live and learn.

[Jimurray]

I have always been taught that two body parts equals TOP in Fed. According to 6.1.2c, bringing both hands together and stopping after he has gotten his sign is legal. This is contrary to everything I understood about the wind-up in Fed. Live and learn.

In 6.1.2c one hand is already in front. Definition of TOP and caseplays make both hands at side and coming together as TOP and therefore no pause in front is permitted by FED. This is not enforced in my neck of the woods. I like OBR's defintion. TO paraphrase: You will know it when you see it.

And for jjskitours:

"2.28.3 SITUATION C

With R1 on third base, F1 steps on the pitcher's plate to take a sign from F2. After taking the sign, F1 brings both hands up together in front of his body and then stops to adjust the ball.

RULING: This is balk. R1 is awarded home. The time of the pitch occurred when F1 moved both arms.

COMMENT: What is the time of the pitch for the (a) windup or (B) set position? For the windup position, the "time of the pitch" occurs when the pitcher (a) after stepping onto the pitcher's plate, with both hands in front of his body first starts any movement of his arm(s)or leg(s) prior to delivering the pitch; (B) with both hands at his side, he first starts any movement with both arms or the non-pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch; © with either hand in front of his body and the other hand at his side, after bringing his hands together, he first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) prior to delivering the pitch. In (B), it occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop, starts any movement with arm(s) and/or leg(s) that commits him to pitch."

[mstaylor]

OK, 2.28.3c is exactly my understanding of the rule. However, 6.1.2c lists three cases, B is a runner on third, the pitcher takes his sign, then brings his hands up in front of him and stops. It says this is legal, so we have a complete contradiction in the casebook.

[RichMSN]

If I were to call this a balk, I'd be the first person (probably) in the state of Wisconsin to do so.

[JaxRolo]

If I were to call this a balk, I'd be the first person (probably) in the state of Wisconsin to do so.

Is there more than 1 Umpire in Wisconsin? :D

[UmpJM]

OK, 2.28.3c is exactly my understanding of the rule. However, 6.1.2c lists three cases, B is a runner on third, the pitcher takes his sign, then brings his hands up in front of him and stops. It says this is legal, so we have a complete contradiction in the casebook.

Michael,

In 6.1.2, the F1's glove hand is already "up" in front of his body, so he's only moving his throwing hand when bringing his hands together.

In 2.28.3c, both hands are at his side and he moves both at the same time when bringing his hands together.

JM

[mstaylor]

For some reason I can't get the casebook to download but since you can, please post my casebook play.

[RichMSN]

If I were to call this a balk, I'd be the first person (probably) in the state of Wisconsin to do so.

Is there more than 1 Umpire in Wisconsin?

There's at least 6 (me and the 5 guys I work with regularly).

[Jimurray]

For some reason I can't get the casebook to download but since you can, please post my casebook play.

6.1.2 SITUATION C

With a runner on third base, F1 steps on to the pitcher's plate in the windup position and his glove hand in front of his body and his pitching hand at his side (a) immediately brings his hands together for the purpose of taking the sign but does not begin his delivery, or (B) gets the sign and then brings his hands together and stops before delivering a pitch, or © gets the sign, brings his hands together and continues his pitching motion.

RULING: In (a), (B) and ©, these are all legal moves.

[mstaylor]

For some reason I can't get the casebook to download but since you can, please post my casebook play.

6.1.2 SITUATION C

With a runner on third base, F1 steps on to the pitcher's plate in the windup position and his glove hand in front of his body and his pitching hand at his side (a) immediately brings his hands together for the purpose of taking the sign but does not begin his delivery, or ( B) gets the sign and then brings his hands together and stops before delivering a pitch, or © gets the sign, brings his hands together and continues his pitching motion.

RULING: In (a), ( B) and ©, these are all legal moves.

Ok , so I was right from the start but I read my example at least three times and read wrong everytime. I always taught that two body parts equal TOP which seems to hold true.