stealing home or squeeze play at the plate

[D62 blue]

i had this happen last night , and this might have been my last gm for the winter . 50/70 LL , juniors rules , real bball , R3 , 1 out (i think)the battery is set , i get set for the pitch , delivers , batters steps out R3 stealing home , catcher had the tag ready , he would have been out by a full two steps , BUT catcher lets the ball dribble out of the mitt , SAFE !! very well executed (clean) play by offense and defense except for the dribbler out of the mitt . so here is the ??? rule 7.07 quote " if with a runner on 3rd base and trying to score by means of a squeeze or steal play , the catcher or any other fielder steps on , or in front of home without possession of the ball , or touches the batter or the bat , the pitcher shall be charged with a balk , the batter shall be awarded first on the interference & the ball is dead . " there isnt any mention of the run scoring or not ? but iam assuming that this is the case , run counts . this is one of the rare cases on interference (delayed call) in which the runner(s) may not have to return ? yes/no . this isnt what happened in my play , but curious what others say/think ? btw the balk reference in this rule is only a scoring keeping matter as to an earned run or not . imho this play is one of the most exciting plays in baseball , trying to STEAL HOME !!!!

marc

[UmpTTS43]

i had this happen last night , and this might have been my last gm for the winter . 50/70 LL , juniors rules , real bball , R3 , 1 out (i think)the battery is set , i get set for the pitch , delivers , batters steps out R3 stealing home , catcher had the tag ready , he would have been out by a full two steps , BUT catcher lets the ball dribble out of the mitt , SAFE !! very well executed (clean) play by offense and defense except for the dribbler out of the mitt . so here is the ??? rule 7.07 quote " if with a runner on 3rd base and trying to score by means of a squeeze or steal play , the catcher or any other fielder steps on , or in front of home without possession of the ball , or touches the batter or the bat , the pitcher shall be charged with a balk , the batter shall be awarded first on the interference & the ball is dead . " there isnt any mention of the run scoring or not ? but iam assuming that this is the case , run counts . this is one of the rare cases on interference (delayed call) in which the runner(s) may not have to return ? yes/no . this isnt what happened in my play , but curious what others say/think ? btw the balk reference in this rule is only a scoring keeping matter as to an earned run or not . imho this play is one of the most exciting plays in baseball , trying to STEAL HOME !!!!

marc

If F2 steps on or in front of home prior to receiving the pitch, then INT is the call. If the pitch has arrived then he muffs it and subsequently steps on or in front of the plate, play on.

In your sitch, if INT occurs, the run will always score. Why would you send an offensive player back for defensive INT?

The additional balk award is not for score keeping purposes. This is the second time I've seen this this week. It is an additional penalty added to further penalize the defense. It allows the advancement of other runners (R2) if they were not stealing.

I don't know about scorekeepping, but when a runner is attempting to steal a base other than home, and CI occurs, the runner is awarded the base he is attempting to steal. The reason for the award of both runner and batter is due to the error on F2. What do you do when bases are loaded, R3 going and B4 interferes. Since B4 is awarded first for the INT, it forces all other runners. Do you now put this in the book as an error or as a result of the balk? (This is a rhetorical ? and I could care less about how it is scored in the book.)

[moblue]

One thing to keep in mind is that the batter will not necessarily get first base out of this. In order for the batter to be given 1B on INT, the catcher must first touch the batter or his bat. The balk call ensures that all runners advance on the play, especially the runner who was trying to steal home. The rule allows for two possible, but seperate calls. Those two calls are a balk for stepping on or in front of home plate without the ball, and interference for touching the batter or his bat.

[UmpTTS43]

One thing to keep in mind is that the batter will not necessarily get first base out of this. In order for the batter to be given 1B on INT, the catcher must first touch the batter or his bat. The balk call ensures that all runners advance on the play, especially the runner who was trying to steal home. The rule allows for two possible, but seperate calls. Those two calls are a balk for stepping on or in front of home plate without the ball, and interference for touching the batter or his bat.

Entirely incorrect. If the catcher goes on or in front of the plate, it is INT period. With 7.07, the batter will ALWAYS get first base.

[spiritumpa]

i had this happen last night , and this might have been my last gm for the winter . 50/70 LL , juniors rules , real bball , R3 , 1 out (i think)the battery is set , i get set for the pitch , delivers , batters steps out R3 stealing home , catcher had the tag ready , he would have been out by a full two steps , BUT catcher lets the ball dribble out of the mitt , SAFE !! very well executed (clean) play by offense and defense except for the dribbler out of the mitt . so here is the ??? rule 7.07 quote " if with a runner on 3rd base and trying to score by means of a squeeze or steal play , the catcher or any other fielder steps on , or in front of home without possession of the ball , or touches the batter or the bat , the pitcher shall be charged with a balk , the batter shall be awarded first on the interference & the ball is dead . " there isnt any mention of the run scoring or not ? but iam assuming that this is the case , run counts . this is one of the rare cases on interference (delayed call) in which the runner(s) may not have to return ? yes/no . this isnt what happened in my play , but curious what others say/think ? btw the balk reference in this rule is only a scoring keeping matter as to an earned run or not . imho this play is one of the most exciting plays in baseball , trying to STEAL HOME !!!!

marc

what was the pitch--ball/strike that is your first reponsablity--also if in the play tere is a balk(catchers balk) run scores from third on the balk. Batter gets first becasuse of the catcher interference.

[D62 blue]

here is some additional info . instructors comments quote " realistically , we know its impossible to enforce both a balk and catchers int. on the same play . one had to happen before the other . when the phrase is used , "the pitcher shall be charged with a balk " , , that enforcement is simply a score keeping matter and results in the run being earned instead of unearned ." this is from the RIM LL reference .

marc

[Rich Ives]

here is some additional info . instructors comments quote " realistically , we know its impossible to enforce both a balk and catchers int. on the same play . one had to happen before the other . when the phrase is used , "the pitcher shall be charged with a balk " , , that enforcement is simply a score keeping matter and results in the run being earned instead of unearned ." this is from the RIM LL reference .

marc

The RIM is wrong. The rule is quite clear. The pitcher is charged woth a balk AND the balk IS enforced - all runners advance a base, forced or not. The rule was a recent add to the LL rules and apparently they didn't quite grasp it.

MLBUM Section 6.12

If a runner is attempting to steal a base when the catcher interferes with the batter, the runner isawarded the base on the interference. Runners not attempting to steal or not forced to advance remain on the base they occupied at the time of the interference unless Official Baseball Rule

7.07 applies. Under Official Baseball Rule 7.07, if a runner is stealing home when the catcher interferes with the batter, the additional penalty of a balk is invoked, which enables all runners on base to advance (whether or not they were stealing). See item (p) in Section 7.5.

[UmpTTS43]

here is some additional info . instructors comments quote " realistically , we know its impossible to enforce both a balk and catchers int. on the same play . one had to happen before the other . when the phrase is used , "the pitcher shall be charged with a balk " , , that enforcement is simply a score keeping matter and results in the run being earned instead of unearned ." this is from the RIM LL reference .

marc

It is not "simply a score keeping matter". It is an additional penalty that would award other baserunners the next base. The score keeping matter is a result of the added penalty. The balk ensures that if there is an R2 without a R1, he is awarded a base.

what was the pitch--ball/strike that is your first reponsablity--also if in the play tere is a balk(catchers balk) run scores from third on the balk. Batter gets first becasuse of the catcher interference.

The pitch has no bearing concerning this play. Either the ball is hit, or it's an immediate dead ball. Doesn't matter if it's ball four or strike three. No such thing as a catcher's balk.

[moblue]

Entirely incorrect. If the catcher goes on or in front of the plate, it is INT period. With 7.07, the batter will ALWAYS get first base.

You're right, my bad. This is still a rule that should be fairly simple, but after several years of dealing with it, I'm still learning how it works. I see now why there would be INT, regardless of contact. As a batter, I wouldn't be taking a swing with the catcher on the plate. A game isn't worth that much too me.

[UmpTTS43]

The RIM is wrong. The rule is quite clear. The pitcher is charged woth a balk AND the balk IS enforced - all runners advance a base, forced or not. The rule was a recent add to the LL rules and apparently they didn't quite grasp it.

LL adds something to their RIM and now everyone is an expert on a rule. Too bad the LL RIM isn't always right.

Moblue. All is good. Now you know how to enforce if it ever happens.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

I'm wondering about something...

In the OP, we are told the batter steps out, so there is no offer at the pitch and in my mind he removes himself right out of the play. Does the batters actions now make all this balk and interference talk moot?

[moblue]

Good point. What is the call if the batter steps out of the box? You can't enforce an automatic strike if the catcher prevents the ball from touching home plate. In the same turn you can't call INT for a batter who isn't there.

[Rich Ives]

Let's look at the rule:

7.07 If, with a runner on third base and trying to score by means of a squeeze play or a steal, the catcher or any other fielder steps on, or in front of home base without possession of the ball, or touches the batter or his bat, the pitcher shall be charged with a balk, the batter shall be awarded first base on the interference and the ball is dead.

It's an "or" statement so if either condition is true - it's true.

So you call it if:

the catcher or any other fielder

1) steps on, or in front of home base without possession of the ball

OR

2) touches the batter or his bat

So: Did the catcher step on or in front of the home base without possession of the ball?

If yes - call it.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Rich Ives

[Penfold]

OK am i missing some thing or reading two much into the play.

This is how i see it. Pitcher pitches, Catcher recives the ball, catcher moves to tag runner drops the ball. Runner scores. The catcher had a right to be there as he had possesion of the ball and cant be expected to disappear when he droped it. because the batter stepped out i would call a strike.

But if by stepping out the batter made the catcher drop the ball. call R3 out for the interferance of the Batter less than 2 out or batter out with 2 outs. run wouldnt score.

By the way shouldnt `B4` be BR

[JaxRolo]

OK am i missing some thing or reading two much into the play.

This is how i see it. Pitcher pitches, Catcher recives the ball, catcher moves to tag runner drops the ball. Runner scores. The catcher had a right to be there as he had possesion of the ball and cant be expected to disappear when he droped it. because the batter stepped out i would call a strike.

But if by stepping out the batter made the catcher drop the ball. call R3 out for the interferance of the Batter less than 2 out or batter out with 2 outs. run wouldnt score.

By the way shouldnt `B4` be BR

I don't think you are reading the question correctly and I also don't see why you would call a strike if it wasn't in the strike zone. Can you provide a rule reference please?

[Penfold]

I don't think you are reading the question correctly and I also don't see why you would call a strike if it wasn't in the strike zone. Can you provide a rule reference please?

Ok calling it a strike if the ball is any where near the strike zone. no one has any reference points. The batter shouldn’t step out during the pitch. The pitch has to be a ball or strike. If the ball bounces or doesn’t make it to the plate, has to be a ball 50/50 pitches penalise the batter for stepping out. no rule refferance at the momment.

Did the catcher catch the ball cleanly.

Rule reference:-

6.02

The batter shall not leave the batters box after the pitcher has become set. or starts his windup.

PENALTY, if the pitcher pitches the call shall be ball or STRIKE as the case may be.if it is ANY where near the zone its going to be a strike, how can a ball be a penalty?

Edited December 6, 2010 by Penfold
rules ref.

[JaxRolo]

Ok calling it a strike if the ball is any where near the strike zone. no one has any reference points. The batter shouldn’t step out during the pitch. The pitch has to be a ball or strike. If the ball bounces or doesn’t make it to the plate, has to be a ball 50/50 pitches penalise the batter for stepping out. no rule refferance at the momment.

Did the catcher catch the ball cleanly.

Rule reference:-

6.02

The batter shall not leave the batters box after the pitcher has become set. or starts his windup.

PENALTY, if the pitcher pitches the call shall be ball or STRIKE as the case may be.if it is ANY where near the zone its going to be a strike, how can a ball be a penalty?

I could be wrong but I believe that does not apply once the ball leaves the pitchers hand. What if its a big breaking curve ball that looks like its going to hit the batter but comes in to just barely miss the strike zone. Its a ball but the batter steps out are you going to call a strike.

If i am wrong I am sure some one will chime in and correct me.

[mstaylor]

I suggest starting a new thread to clarify what we are discussing. The thread has changed a couple of times so post the play you are responding to.

[D62 blue]

I suggest starting a new thread to clarify what we are discussing. The thread has changed a couple of times so post the play you are responding to.

everyone go back to my OP , to read what i originally was describing . this is a good topic for discussion , yes ?

marc

[D62 blue]

i had this happen last night , and this might have been my last gm for the winter . 50/70 LL , juniors rules , real bball , R3 , 1 out (i think)the battery is set , i get set for the pitch , delivers , batters steps out R3 stealing home , catcher had the tag ready , he would have been out by a full two steps , BUT catcher lets the ball dribble out of the mitt , SAFE !! very well executed (clean) play by offense and defense except for the dribbler out of the mitt . so here is the ??? rule 7.07 quote " if with a runner on 3rd base and trying to score by means of a squeeze or steal play , the catcher or any other fielder steps on , or in front of home without possession of the ball , or touches the batter or the bat , the pitcher shall be charged with a balk , the batter shall be awarded first on the interference & the ball is dead . " there isnt any mention of the run scoring or not ? but iam assuming that this is the case , run counts . this is one of the rare cases on interference (delayed call) in which the runner(s) may not have to return ? yes/no . this isnt what happened in my play , but curious what others say/think ? btw the balk reference in this rule is only a scoring keeping matter as to an earned run or not . imho this play is one of the most exciting plays in baseball , trying to STEAL HOME !!!!

marc

here it is OP

marc

[mstaylor]

I will let some of the others that have come to the thread late answer before I step back in. Thanks for reposting the OP.

[alex7]

D62,

The rulebooks say as soon as the C catches the ball in front of the plate, it's interference.

You can call it right away if you see it, or let the play finish and then figure it out.

1) Basically, if the R3 was safe, and the BR made no effort at the ball, just let it all play out.

2) If you want to interject yourself into the play, call INT and award R3 home even though he was safe.

You went with choice 1, and that works out for 99% of people and umpires.

your original call was correct.

There was no interference. What did the catcher interfere with? Nothing.

That interference rule, as you probably know, is there to protect the hitter in case he wants to bunt or swing at a pitch, and the C interferes by reaching out and catching the ball early.

[Rich Ives]

D62,

The rulebooks say as soon as the C catches the ball in front of the plate, it's interference.

You can call it right away if you see it, or let the play finish and then figure it out.

1) Basically, if the R3 was safe, and the BR made no effort at the ball, just let it all play out.

2) If you want to interject yourself into the play, call INT and award R3 home even though he was safe.

You went with choice 1, and that works out for 99% of people and umpires.

your original call was correct.

There was no interference. What did the catcher interfere with? Nothing.

That interference rule, as you probably know, is there to protect the hitter in case he wants to bunt or swing at a pitch, and the C interferes by reaching out and catching the ball early.

Re-read the highlighted part.

It is interference by definition. You cannot decide it was not.

[alex7]

Rich, my thought is that in real time, by the time your brain realizes it was interference, you're calling the runner safe anyways. If this is young kids ball, which I got the impression that it is, should we interject, call interference, award the runner home, scratch the pitch from the record book, adjust the count, explain it to the runner looking back at you now, explain it to at least one of the coaches, explain it to the scorekeeper...

or would it be ok to just let it go since the interference didn't interfere with anything based on the OP?

And I'm asking honestly, what a vet umpire would do at a young-ball level.

[mstaylor]

Rich, my thought is that in real time, by the time your brain realizes it was interference, you're calling the runner safe anyways. If this is young kids ball, which I got the impression that it is, should we interject, call interference, award the runner home, scratch the pitch from the record book, adjust the count, explain it to the runner looking back at you now, explain it to at least one of the coaches, explain it to the scorekeeper...

or would it be ok to just let it go since the interference didn't interfere with anything based on the OP?

And I'm asking honestly, what a vet umpire would do at a young-ball level.

At any level call the interference. The younger they are the more expanation that will be needed.