Force Play?

[mstaylor]

This is an interesting sitch that was presented on a Yahoo LL list. I put me two cents in but thought I would post it here to get some other thoughts on it. Rich, let some guys answer first, I know you have already tracked the answers on the other board plus added your thoughts.

Bases loaded, none out.

Batter hits a blooper that rolls up the 1B line.

Base Coach shouts "Foul". PU still watching the ball - no call.

Catcher fields the ball and PU points fair.

In the meantime B/R touches 1B, but hearing his coach, then turns around and heads back toward home.

R1 has run to 2B and now R1 and R2 are standing on 2B. R3 has also returned to 3B after hearing his coach call foul.

Catcher tags B/R for out #1. Catcher throws to 3B where R3 is tagged for out #2. Ball is relayed to 2B where R1 is tagged then R2. The base umpire (a coach stand in) wasn't really sure who was out, but knew one them was.

So - who was out #3, R1 or R2?

[calablue]

This is an interesting sitch that was presented on a Yahoo LL list. I put me two cents in but thought I would post it here to get some other thoughts on it. Rich, let some guys answer first, I know you have already tracked the answers on the other board plus added your thoughts.

Bases loaded, none out.

Batter hits a blooper that rolls up the 1B line.

Base Coach shouts "Foul". PU still watching the ball - no call.

Catcher fields the ball and PU points fair.

In the meantime B/R touches 1B, but hearing his coach, then turns around and heads back toward home.

R1 has run to 2B and now R1 and R2 are standing on 2B. R3 has also returned to 3B after hearing his coach call foul.

Catcher tags B/R for out #1. Catcher throws to 3B where R3 is tagged for out #2. Ball is relayed to 2B where R1 is tagged then R2. The base umpire (a coach stand in) wasn't really sure who was out, but knew one them was.

So - who was out #3, R1 or R2?

R2 was forced on the play so he would be out #3. The force was not removed because the BR acquired 1B before he became out #1. Seems like the F5 could have saved a throw by stepping on 3B after he tagged R3 and would have accomplished the same thing.

[Rich Ives]

My tongue hurts from biting it.

[jnazz]

I may be wrong here but here goes nothing. I assume R3 was standing off the bag when he was tagged for the second out. Then R1 (the following runner) is out when both are tagged at second.

Please Rich, chime in.

[mstaylor]

Bite a little longer. I am interested to see the responses to my post on the other list.

[AllanA]

Well to be fair I would probably have verbal interference. I would call lead runner out. Return r2 and r1. Return batter back to bat. Wouldn't be the best solution but I would think it would be the fairest.

jmo

[JaxRolo]

R2 was forced on the play so he would be out #3. The force was not removed because the BR acquired 1B before he became out #1. Seems like the F5 could have saved a throw by stepping on 3B after he tagged R3 and would have accomplished the same thing.

I think the force is removed after BR is tagged out. So the the tagged on R3 is "safe" Then the tag on the following runner R1 is out.

2 Outs

I'm Probably way off on this.

[JaxRolo]

Well to be fair I would probably have verbal interference. I would call lead runner out. Return r2 and r1. Return batter back to bat. Wouldn't be the best solution but I would think it would be the fairest.

jmo

The only players that got confused by the coach were is own runners. So I would not call verbal interference.

[Mr Umpire]

Assuming R3 was not touching 3B:

BR out on the tag. R3 is out on the tag. R1 is out on the tag b/c there is no force anymore. BR is no longer a runner so R1 is no longer forced. Therefore, R2 is no longer forced and has legal possession of 2B.

Assuming R3 was touching 3B:

BR out on the tag. R3 is safe. R1 is out on the tag for the same reason. But, there is no 3rd out. Only 2.

It doesn't matter how BR is retired. Just that he is retired and thus removes any force play on any base. Oh, and no one should be calling abandonment on the BR. He was not going to the dugout nor to a position to field. So, don't let that enter anyone's mind. And, if he isn't tagged, once he returns to HP and touches or passes it, then he is out and that too removes any force play.

Just caveats to what could happen if BR is not tagged by F2.

[Mr Umpire]

The only players that got confused by the coach were is own runners. So I would not call verbal interference.

I wouldn't either. But, I would warn him that the next time is EJ. That is a reserved word for the umpire just like "Balk". He may be doing it for the same effect of confusing the defense and needs to stop.

[soapbox]

I'm with Jax on this. Once the BR is out, why should there still be a force in effect?

[Rich Ives]

Once the B/R was out there were no forces in effect. (If you think there are, please identify who is doing the forcing.)

R3 is safe if he was on the bag when tagged.

R1 is out on the tag at 2B because the bag belongs to R2.

[JaxRolo]

I got one right for a change!!!! Whoo hooo!!!

Maybe I am learning something!

[jnazz]

Once the B/R was out there were no forces in effect. (If you think there are, please identify who is doing the forcing.)

R3 is safe if he was on the bag when tagged.

R1 is out on the tag at 2B because the bag belongs to R2.

So does the 2 runners at one base tag rule (following runner out) only apply if the runners have advanced?

[mrumpiresir]

So does the 2 runners at one base tag rule (following runner out) only apply if the runners have advanced?

You have to determine who has the right to occupy the base. In the OP, since R2 was not forced to advance, he has legal posession of second base, and when R1 is tagged, he is out.

Now if the BR was not out, R2 is forced to advance and R1 has legal right to the bag and R2 would be out when tagged.

[mstaylor]

The only caveat I would add is that when I read the original play I was thinking R3 had touched home and then returned to third on the foul call. If that was indeed true then R3 has legally scored and that can't change.

So the answer is if the R3 scored then BR is out, R3 scores, R2 is on second and R1 is out. If he hadn't touched then R3 is safe at third if he was on third when tagged.

[mazzamouth]

It doesn't matter how BR is retired. Just that he is retired and thus removes any force play on any base. Oh, and no one should be calling abandonment on the BR. He was not going to the dugout nor to a position to field. So, don't let that enter anyone's mind. And, if he isn't tagged, once he returns to HP and touches or passes it, then he is out and that too removes any force play.

.

a BR or Runner does not have to go into the dugout or a position on the field to be called out for abandonment.. If he gives up running or trying to advance he can be called out.

[AllanA]

I wouldn't either. But, I would warn him that the next time is EJ. That is a reserved word for the umpire just like "Balk". He may be doing it for the same effect of confusing the defense and needs to stop.

Why would you do that if its only his players getting confused? I thought we are here to be fair to both teams not one or the other because of the coaches.

In youth "daddy coach" ball I have found you have to have some leeway. At least in my area daddy coaches aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. Older boys I agree.

[JaxRolo]

Why would you do that if its only his players getting confused? I thought we are here to be fair to both teams not one or the other because of the coaches.

In youth "daddy coach" ball I have found you have to have some leeway. At least in my area daddy coaches aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. Older boys I agree.

I think Mr Umpire is correct in this. Maybe only his kids got confused in this play but next time it might confuse the defense. So it is good preventative umpiring.

[mstaylor]

You can't get a verbal interference because the defense kept playing the ball, and effectively.