2 steps fair or 90 degrees?

[rth54]

What are the pros and cons of taking 2 steps fair vs. taking a 90 degree angle for plays at first base. I know there are two schools of thinking on this, but I was hoping to get some insight into the rationale.

[mstaylor]

There are plays that call for two steps fair, it's called pressure from F4. Anything else, you need to get out where you belong and call your base, adjust from there.

[BrianC14]

You'll need a lot more choices just an "either or" approach on a poll question like this. Consider adding another selection - - a choice of "Neither" might work well on this poll.

Every play is different - sometimes you have to adjust to it, as Mr. Taylor has pointed out.

I'd say that two steps fair will be fine for most routine plays, but it would be disastrous on others.

BTW: the 90 degree angle at 1B is going (has gone, actually) the way of the dodo bird. The reason being that 90 degrees can easily get you straightlined on a play - - and the same can be said for 2 steps fair.

[noumpere]

There are plays that call for two steps fair, it's called pressure from F4. Anything else, you need to get out where you belong and call your base, adjust from there.

If there's enough pressure from F4, go foul. Should happen once every umpteen games, though. (Too many umpires go foul too often).

I agree that you need to adjust depending on the throw, and the answer might depend on whether there's an umpire waiting at second in case of an overthrow, and how quickly an individual umpire can react.

[rth54]

I probably should have added another option to the poll as Brian suggested....

[mstaylor]

I am going to be closer to 90 than TSF most of the time. I understand that if pressure is bad enough to go foul but most times TSF will be fine. Adjusting to a better position has to be done no matter what base it is or if you are in the outfield on a trouble ball. To me what has gone the way of the Dodo bird is the hands on knees for plays at bases. Too many things can happen and it makes you too static.

[BrianC14]

Let's face it - the vast majority of those on this board work 2-man mechanics. Some may work 3-man, but I'd have to say that it's pretty rare among the usual posters here.

If you are working 2-man, and you go into foul territory because of pressure, it's a disaster waiting to happen if/when the ball is thrown poorly and it gets away from F3 or whoever is covering.

[BrianC14]

I am going to be closer to 90 than TSF most of the time. I understand that if pressure is bad enough to go foul but most times TSF will be fine. Adjusting to a better position has to be done no matter what base it is or if you are in the outfield on a trouble ball. To me what has gone the way of the Dodo bird is the hands on knees for plays at bases. Too many things can happen and it makes you too static.

Here's the default as I see it. If you're 2 (or 3) steps fair, and the ball is hit to F5 or F6, you're almost at 90 degrees anyway - it would be difficult not to be. A ball hit up the middle where F6 ranges near or behind the bag, then you're probably going to be too close to his throwing line if you truly attempt to get to 90 degrees - so there, two steps should be plenty; and of course, the same can be said for just about anything hit to F4.

Adjustments, of course, are always (usually?) going to be necessary.

[UmpTTS43]

There is a lot more to either/or in this situation. The 90 degree philosophy, which is still taught at one of the pro schools, applies to balls that are hit to the left side of the infield or in front of the plate. With this philosophy, we assume a higher level of ball that has the first baseman adjusting to receive to throw so his body is in a straight line with the throw. At lower levels, the first baseman usually sets up with his foot on the inside of the bag regardless of where the throw comes in. The 90 degree philosophy says that you are able to get a better view of a possible pulled foot with the higher level players.

On balls hit to the right side of the infield, you must first read the play to see if there is "pressure". "Pressure" is defined where 1) the second baseman is coming hard, directly at you, 2) the second baseman goes back to field the ball and you focusing on the front of the bag, after reading the throw, requires abrupt head movement or puts you in the line of the throw and 3) when the first baseman fields the ball and tosses the ball to the pitcher making the play at first with the possibility of the first baseman being in your line of sight. When these plays happen, it is taught that you take these plays two steps foul. Keep in mind that if you decide to take plays in foul territory, you must have a thorough pregame with your partner in the event that an overthrow or other situation arises where the runner attempts to advance to second. When this happens and if you have had a thorough pregame, the PU can take the runner into second while the BU has the ball.

On balls hit to the right side where there is no pressure, you can take two steps fair to make the call.

[noumpere]

If you are working 2-man, and you go into foul territory because of pressure, it's a disaster waiting to happen if/when the ball is thrown poorly and it gets away from F3 or whoever is covering.

PU can take the runner to second and BU can take the ball. It's not ideal, but it works in the relatively rare combination of pressure and an overthrow.

As always, if this isn't your standard mechanic, then pre-game the hell out of it and read your partner.

[BrianC14]

PU can take the runner to second and BU can take the ball. It's not ideal, but it works in the relatively rare combination of pressure and an overthrow.

As always, if this isn't your standard mechanic, then pre-game the hell out of it and read your partner.

Well, good luck with all that. Just be prepared for an a55holes and elbows view if you happen to be the unfortunate plate umpire.

I say this because we all know (we all know this, right?) that the plate umpire's job on this play is to trail the B/R to the 45' line. So now that the base umpire has decided to put himself on the periphery and out of the play, it's now up to the plate umpire to turn left and hope he's got a rocket in his a55 so that he can beat the pending play at second base.

But, if your particular assocation uses this, then have at it; I'm in no place to argue against it.

I would never go into foul territory on a play like this (with 2-man mechanics), because of our local/regional way of handling this mechanic. It's one of the few absolutes in working 2-man. (Hey, there's gotta be some things set in stone, doesn't there)?

[Umpete]

So I'm BU in fair territory but close to the line on one of these plays with pressure that results in an overthrow with BR heading to second. It's my call - where do I go and how do I get there? Stay outside or cross inside behind the runner?

[BrianC14]

So I'm BU in fair territory but close to the line on one of these plays with pressure that results in an overthrow with BR heading to second. It's my call - where do I go and how do I get there? Stay outside or cross inside behind the runner?

Like you said - it's your call. If you have room, the optimum place to be is inside. You have to read the throw on every play (right?) - take advantage of that - if you see it is going to the fence, cheat over a bit. If it's impossible to get there, take the play from the outside.

2-man mechanics have definite limitations, and this is certainly one of them.

In my opinion, going into foul territory only makes a bad situation worse.

[noumpere]

Well, good luck with all that. Just be prepared for an a55holes and elbows view if you happen to be the unfortunate plate umpire.

PU can get the same look as BU gets when busting inside from 2SF or 90 degrees.

When PU reads BU in foul, PU runs on the inside of the line (fair territory). He's already moving, and heads for the back of the mound (working area). The angle isn't too bad.

If you haven't tried it, then I praobably can't convince you. If you have, you know it works.

[PeteBooth]

PU can get the same look as BU gets when busting inside from 2SF or 90 degrees.

When PU reads BU in foul, PU runs on the inside of the line (fair territory). He's already moving, and heads for the back of the mound (working area). The angle isn't too bad.

If you haven't tried it, then I praobably can't convince you. If you have, you know it works.

I am with Brian.

Suppose you have R2. Since we have an overthrow, the PU has to watch R2 touch third and be ready for a possible play at the plate.

or we could have R3 and as soon as R3 sees the ball overthrown takes off for home.

Bottom line: In a 2 person crew the BU should NOT go into Foul territory. Have I done it - Yes, but it was not the right thing to do and is NOT taught at clinics. As Brian said you could get yourself in all kinds of hot water.

Pete Booth

[ukce1861]

I am with Brian.

Suppose you have R2. Since we have an overthrow, the PU has to watch R2 touch third and be ready for a possible play at the plate.

or we could have R3 and as soon as R3 sees the ball overthrown takes off for home.

Bottom line: In a 2 person crew the BU should NOT go into Foul territory. Have I done it - Yes, but it was not the right thing to do and is NOT taught at clinics. As Brian said you could get yourself in all kinds of hot water.

Pete Booth

Pete, your scenarios don't apply. If you have a runner, BU would never go into foul territory to make a call because he wouldn't be anywhere near the line to begin with. Not saying you should go foul, but worrying about other runners isn't a concern.

[mstaylor]

Brian:

I have had partners go foul on me and I did exactly as described, turned left and went toward the worrking area and let the BU take the ball. It is unusual but it will happen once in a great while. The PU has a better chance of making the play at second than the BU trying to get there from foul on the outside of the base. I have never pregamed this, it just happens and I reacted, yelled I had second and the BU automaticly goes with the ball. Everytime it has happened it has been in adult wooden bat. Never had a mishap yet.

[Astrosdawg07]

How about where you have a play with no one on and its hit to F3 and he is in a foot race to beat the BR. In this situation I've found I have a better view to go foul since there is no throw. Being on that side of the bag (foul) leaves a much clear view I believe. But I would never go foul on a possible throw.

[spiritumpa]

the fact of the matter is that is the proper mechanic--if the base umps goes into fouls area in order to make the call at first(that is the first priority) THEN IT IS THE PLATE UMPS PLAY INTO SECOND--with the two man system that is the mechanic

[BrianC14]

the fact of the matter is that is the proper mechanic--if the base umps goes into fouls area in order to make the call at first(that is the first priority) THEN IT IS THE PLATE UMPS PLAY INTO SECOND--with the two man system that is the mechanic

Please provide a reference to the manual that states that it is a proper mechanic for a base umpire to go into foul territory to make a call at first.

[BrianC14]

Brian:

I have had partners go foul on me and I did exactly as described, turned left and went toward the worrking area and let the BU take the ball. It is unusual but it will happen once in a great while. The PU has a better chance of making the play at second than the BU trying to get there from foul on the outside of the base. I have never pregamed this, it just happens and I reacted, yelled I had second and the BU automaticly goes with the ball. Everytime it has happened it has been in adult wooden bat. Never had a mishap yet.

Mike:

To be clear: my earlier response about the base umpire getting into position for a play at 2B on an overthrow at first had nothing to do with the base umpire being in foul territory. As I've stated, I do not believe that a base umpire in foul territory is correct or adviseable. That said, if there is an overthrow, and the base umpire is either at 90 degrees or 2 steps fair, it is his play at 2nd base. Being in the proper position puts the base umpire closer to the pending play at 2nd base. Remember, the plate guy is going to be at (hopefully) the 45 foot line - on the line. That puts him farther away from second than the base umpire. True, sometimes clusterflops happen, and it can work out as best you can hope for if the plate guy calls off the base umpire and hustles down to 2B... but I maintain that the view is going to be all a55holes and elbows. That puts us right back to my point about the obvious limitations about 2-man crews.

[BrianC14]

PU can get the same look as BU gets when busting inside from 2SF or 90 degrees.

When PU reads BU in foul, PU runs on the inside of the line (fair territory). He's already moving, and heads for the back of the mound (working area). The angle isn't too bad.

If you haven't tried it, then I praobably can't convince you. If you have, you know it works.

Well don't feel bad about not being able to convince me... it's just that with the training I've had says that no base umpire should ever be in foul territory on this call. I haven't tried it because I've been instructed not to do it. Now, I have tried it when working 3-man, but that's a whole different kettle o' fish, as you know.

Just my $0.02, and my experience.

[noumpere]

That said, if there is an overthrow, and the base umpire is either at 90 degrees or 2 steps fair, it is his play at 2nd base.

I agree with that. I was talking only about the play where BU goes foul.

I also agree that too many umpires go into foul territory too often.

But, there is a cause for going foul, and I'd rather be foul for a good look on the play that will happen than be in fair for a play that might, when there is a backup for that second play.

[UmpJM]

Brian,

Please provide a reference to the manual that states that it is a proper mechanic for a base umpire to go into foul territory to make a call at first.

Maximizing the Two-Umpire System, by Jim Evans and Dick Nelson. Page 11, under the heading "Pressure".

JM

[mstaylor]

What the heck does Evans know about umpiring? :bang: