Charlie Manuel ejection

[24sdad]

Just saw the video highlights for Phillies/Nats game 5-4-12 (would post the video but I know I would screw it up) and PU Bob Drake ejected Manuel for arguing balls and strikes. Harper is batting and checked his swing for ball four. F2 points to third for an appeal. Drake in turn points to second base umpire (in deep "B" ) for the appeal, who signals no swing. Manuel runs his yapper from the dugout and is ejected by Drake.

Anyone know why with LH batter PU would appeal to umpire in "B?" Box score shows four umpires.

[johnnyg08]

Anyone know why with LH batter PU would appeal to umpire in "B?" Box score shows four umpires.

Yep, they're working three man.

[cyclonehokiece]

For what it is worth, the game is still going on, tied at 3 at the end of 8 with a controversial force at home in the bottom of the 8th where it appeared that the Phillies catcher may not of held the plate for the force. Joe West is ill and unable to umpire tonight, so they had to go to a 3 man crew.

[johnnyg08]

There was a controversial steal of 3b where it appeared as though U3 didn't get a very good angle.

[cyclonehokiece]

How much of this (the bad angle at 3, the strange check swing appeal) do you think is rusty 3 man mechanics for these guys. I mean, they probably only work a smattering of these three man games in spring training.

[johnnyg08]

Drake from PU also missed a fair ball down the 3BL that passed over the base. U3 gets it right for sure.

Again, I'm not disparaging the umpires, we all miss calls...but yes, I think they're rusty and unfortunately for them, fortunately for us, they have many cameras at their games, we have few or zero cameras at our games.

Yes, I think they're rusty. It would be like most of our guys going from two man to three man where we work it only a few times per year vs two man all of the time.

[Lindsay]

Joe's absence sure was felt tonight. The twitterverse cracked jokes that even when he's not working, West manages to screw up ballgames or something to that effect. We're in the middle of appealing the check swing QOC (currently "correct"), but the Phillies' top7 would likely have turned out very differently with U3 in his normal 4-man spot: First Ruiz's foul ball would have been called fair and second Victorino's SB attempt would have been called safe instead of out (Fletcher in C was straightlined on that tag, no question).

[dumbdumb]

This is as good as it gets for showing the ball might/or might not have gone over the bag, but the point is, watch where the ball leaves a mark. This is the mark the defense will start pointing to when making the case of the ball being foul. We all know the ball may hook over the base and catch the corner like a slider or sweeping curve but land foul, yet the ball is fair. They know that also, but will of course argue just the opposite.

Unfortunately with the foul ball, you can tell the camera is set up to the left of the line. I want a camera right on (yes, that means dead on) the line to view these type calls, not some distorted view from either the left or right for line calls.

Looks like Drake used the old method of going to the guy on the inside like he use to do back in his day in the minors, rather than the new mechanic of the guy on the line no matter what. Bet the CC bought the guys a round for taking care of business.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=21161009&topic_id=8879838&c_id=mlb

[24sdad]

Other than getting a good discussion going re: 2/3/4 man mechanics, its my wife and daughter's fault I posted this (its never mine, right?). They gang up on me to turn my laptop volume off while we all watch TV. I watched the original clip again this morning, with the volume on, and the announcers were explaining the absent 4th umpire. :smachhead: carry on.

[hbk314]

Definitely some rust with the 3-man considering they were positioned incorrectly with 1 out and a runner on second.

[24sdad]

Definitely some rust with the 3-man considering they were positioned incorrectly with 1 out and a runner on second.

hbk, good catch. I have no idea how MiLB positions three man in this scenario, but CCA and my HS association agree with you (U1 in deep B and U3 in D). The only positioning change we will do is with two outs...U3 will move into C and U1 back to A, as we expect most plays in the infield will go to first base. Again, not knowing how MiLB positions for this scenario, using the college/HS positioning would have put U3 on the line for the fair/foul and steal of third calls.

[dumbdumb]

Kind of amazing to have 3 calls all in 1 video that show 3 controversies. If the correct mechanics for a single runner on 2B only in a 3 man; is to make sure that 1BU gets a get look at the close play at first, these 2 plays in the 7th show what can happen with that system of positioning. If you moved the umpires over, the 1BU would still get to set up on the 1B side of the bag and easily be able to move at the crack of the bat to get great positioning for the play at first from the infield if that is his only play, along with a great look on a pickoff at 2nd while the 3BU would have the steal into 3rd. Of course, if a left-hander were to be at bat and hooked one down the 1st baseline with the 1st base umpire in the infield, you would still have the PU having to judge the fair/foul. And of course, as with any system used, none are guaranteed perfect 100% of the time.

Oh yes, the Phillies aren't going so hot. A controversial call is just what Charlie needed. He was considerably overdue to be run sticking up for his team.

[hbk314]

Yeah. If he doesn't get run in the first, he definitely gets run in the 7th.

[Thunderheads]

that's just a nightmare game........