Thrown Bat?

[Hilton1]

 

 

 

I find it interesting that there are so many different ways to make the call on throwing the bat (most have ejections) in replies. It seems that in Little League it would be clear.  The rule should state that any bat that strikes a catcher or umpire is interference and ruled dead ball out.  Just as a bat that ends up in fair territory could cause interference. (depending on what happens after the bat is thrown, hits nothing, "no harm no foul"  should apply to this call.  In addition, a bat that rest inside the catchers box or in fair territory after hitting a ball and in the judgement of the umpire interferes with a play should be ruled interference and ruled out and dead.  No runners advance.

 

I have seen a situation in softball (not baseball yet) when a slap hitter pounds the ball into the ground creating a big bounce and while running up the line throw the bat into fair territory creating a distraction for the first baseman making the play.   The at bat is legal and by rule unless the bat hits the ball or the ball hits the bat, I have no call for interference.  Little League rules should create this rule.  Takes the gray out of it.

 

So maybe we make the batter stop and put his bat in the bat rack before going to first?  Do we make the fielders wait for him to do it?

 

No, we keep catchers and umpires safe from bats that do not need to be thrown in their direction.  Batters do not need to throw the bat to perform hitting but catchers and umpires need to dodge those bats just because why?

 

 

I was commenting on the bolded part.

 

When you played what did you do with your bat after hitting the ball?

 

Ahh, the bolded area.  First lets go down memory lane.  When I played 40 plus years ago I do not remember throwing a bat at the catcher or umpire.  Those that did were warned and then called out.  The manager coached this out of the batter.  That was then and this is now.  The last 15 years of umpiring I have not had to enforce a throwing of the bat penalty until now.  The last two years it has happened more often.  In the last two years I have seen two catchers leave the game with injuries to their arms from thrown bats and had a bat wrap around my neck.  Little League needs a more black and white rule.  Have you done a Little League game lately with all the new pitching and catching rules?  Have you heard the dreaded words from a manager " Hey blue, I have to try this guy out at catcher, sorry".  Now I'm the back stop for pitches and bats.  I am making suggestions on addressing this on a rule that most can agree. 

[mstaylor]

LL has not directly addressed the bat throwing rule because anything they do will be screwed up by well intentioned but poorly trained umpires. This not a knock on LL umpires as a whole but there are guys out there that have no training or their own value set. It is very simple, a carelessly thrown bat, usually a bat released on the swing, is a team warning and an ejection on a second offense by the same team. A bat thrown in anger is an auto eject. The problem is the third type of thrown bat, the one where they swing and throw the bat off to the side causing no problem. Too many try to make it an issue, it is not a problem, especially on 60 ft with no on deck. If you want written guidance, use the Fed rule. 

[Rich Ives]

Some silly parameter won't let me post while including "too many" referenced posts

 

Hilton1:

 

That's not what the bolded part said. Your bolded part says that if the batter just normally drops the bat and it's in the way you can call the batter out and rule interference.  Do you really mean that?

[Hilton1]

I was trying to brain storm a rule even LL volunteer umpires would be able to call.  You could take out the catcher box part but give the umpire judgement on bats that land in fair that cause interference. ( Should be simple judgement on interference or not)  I was trying to address the slap hitter that throws a bat into fair territory and hinders a first baseman from making a play.  According to LL officials there is no rule for throwing the bat but I quoted a rule that does apply to a thrown bat that  is ruled based on what happens to the bat and the ball.  I don't think it would be that hard to apply a rule here that doen't always mean ejection.  Bats that are thrown away from the play or doesn't hit catcher or umpire is "no harm no foul".  You could also issue a warning when a bat hit the catcher or umpire and eject the next occurrence.   Obviously, a bat thrown in anger is easy call.  I would like to hear some situations if this rule were in place that it wouldn't work.  Be the devils advacate and give me some situations you have seen on this.  Makes the call easy on the situations in my original post.  The post by mstaylor is the call you have to make at this point by rule, so you have to eject or call nothing.

[noumpere]

Does LL NOT have the 6.05h comment "IF a whole bat is thrown into fair territory and interferes with a defensive plaer atempting to make a play interfernce shall be called whether intentional or not" ?

 

Im very confused by what your trying to accomplish here.

[Hilton1]

Does LL NOT have the 6.50h comment "IF a whole bat is thrown into fair territory and interferes with a defensive plaer atempting to make a play interfernce shall be called whether intentional or not" ?

 

Im very confused by what your trying to accomplish here.

No such rule exist in LL rule book.

[sdix00]

I am mobile so I can't format it properly, but. . .

The LL Umpire's manual clearly instructs umpires NOT to call a batter out simply for throwing the bat. Check 6.06c comment in Make the Right Call .

There are 17 ways a batter can be called out and this ain't one of them. 9.01c does NOT apply because the book absolutely covers all the ways a batter may be called out.

From the RIM:

9.01c comment

Situations such as throwing the bat and other potentially unsafe actions should be covered as follows: Warn the player and warn the other members of this player’s team. After the warnings highly recommend to the manager of the offending team that it is time to substitute for the offender until they are properly schooled in the proper method of discarding the bat after the ball is hit. While there is no easy solution to this problem ultimately the responsibility rests with the team manager for teaching the players the proper way to discard a bat.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[mstaylor]

Also in the LL book,6.05g covers it. The instructor comments for that rule further clarifies it.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[Hilton1]

I am mobile so I can't format it properly, but. . .

The LL Umpire's manual clearly instructs umpires NOT to call a batter out simply for throwing the bat. Check 6.06c comment in Make the Right Call .

There are 17 ways a batter can be called out and this ain't one of them. 9.01c does NOT apply because the book absolutely covers all the ways a batter may be called out.

From the RIM:

9.01c comment

Situations such as throwing the bat and other potentially unsafe actions should be covered as follows: Warn the player and warn the other members of this player’s team. After the warnings highly recommend to the manager of the offending team that it is time to substitute for the offender until they are properly schooled in the proper method of discarding the bat after the ball is hit. While there is no easy solution to this problem ultimately the responsibility rests with the team manager for teaching the players the proper way to discard a bat.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Agreed, on the rules of simply throwing the bat but one of the 17 ways to be out is for throwing a bat that hits the ball a second time. Interference, easy call and rule applied. Nothing for hitting the catcher that interferes or umpire. We can debate the unsportsmanlike of throwing the bat but the rule should be clear. The current rule is clear on interference with the catcher on fielding or throwing a ball but not recieving a ball. So, as in situation 1 in above post on page one we have no rule to apply except ejection maybe but the game is over and we had interference on the play. This is not simply throwing the bat. It seems 9.01© could apply.

[Stan W.]

no, never, ever..............9.01 C is the crutch of poor, untrained umpires..........it is only to be used in situations where the rule book has no ruling.........in this matter, the rule book is clear.....warn, then eject....

[Rich Ives]

 

Does LL NOT have the 6.50h comment "IF a whole bat is thrown into fair territory and interferes with a defensive plaer atempting to make a play interfernce shall be called whether intentional or not" ?

 

Im very confused by what your trying to accomplish here.

No such rule exist in LL rule book.

 

 

 

The LL book omits a lot of the OBR comments to save costs, but they do apply.  This one applies.

 

But don't even think of calling it when the catcher is receiving a ball. The rule is about interfering with a play on a batted ball. Bats have been left lying on the ground by the plate since the game began. It has never been considered able to be interference on a play at the plate.

 

As you spend more time learning the ins and outs of the rules you will realize that they do not always mean exactly what they say. That's why, even at the MLB level, there are interpretation manuals and case books to expand on meaning and explain how to call certain plays.

 

It's good that you are here to learn. Keep posting.

[noumpere]

 

 

Does LL NOT have the 6.50h comment "IF a whole bat is thrown into fair territory and interferes with a defensive plaer atempting to make a play interfernce shall be called whether intentional or not" ?

 

Im very confused by what your trying to accomplish here.

No such rule exist in LL rule book.

 

 

 

The LL book omits a lot of the OBR comments to save costs, but they do apply.  This one applies.

 

 

 

Thank you its been a long long time since I last worked a LL game but I thought it must be there at least in spirit if not in print.  And I agree on when it applies and doesn't apply and just think the poster is confused.

[mstaylor]

Just don't make it harder than it is. A bat that is thrown carelessly and lands in the direction or hits either the catcher or umpire should be warned. A bat that the batter lets go but poses no dander, let go. A bat that interferes with the fielder, BR gets called out. A bat thrown in anger/frustration is a quick ejection. No need to write further rules. 

[BigSimonia]

You seem to want the interference to be automatic if the bat hits the umpire or catcher or ends up in fair territory?  If that's so then I disagree.

If the thrown bat interferes with the throwing or fielding of a thrown ball it is only "interference" if it was intentional (8-4-2g).  If the thrown bat interferes with the fielding of a batted ball, intent isn't required (7-3-6)

[Hilton1]

Just don't it harder than it is. A bat that is thrown carelessly and lands in the direction or hits either the catcher or umpire should be warned. A bat that the batter lets go but poses no dander, let go. A bat that interferes with the fielder, BR gets called out. A bat thrown in anger/frustration is a quick ejection. No need to write further rules. 

I’m referring to Little League and the rules that apply.

All the different ways shared on making the call on situation 1 &2.

 

1. First, watch the bat, and then 2^nd warn and then out & eject.

2. You will lose the protest for calling out. Not according to another.

3. Protested to Williamsport and ruled out not eject. WOW this was interesting.

4. Warn batter and manager. Batter throws bat again eject. Ice the arm. Not sure if he ejected manager too.

5. Warn the batter and the team and ask manager to remove the bat throwing guy until he goes to a clinic.

6. Bat thrown first time, team warning, and then eject  the next offender. No out.

7. Situation 1 could be out for interference or nothing.  Situation 2. Eject.

8. All kinds of replies with rules from other rule books.

9. Some “funny†suggestions like make the batter put the bat in the rack.

10.  â€œKISS†Keep it simple stupid.. Warn then eject.

 

Most all leagues have rules that address the situations I asked about.  Possibly allow for an out for interference in situation 1. It simply was interference and affected the game.

 

(The parent of the catcher was pissed at me for not making a call and I heard it pretty loud.)    I should have ejected the batter but the game was over.

 

I do like to keep it simple so I thought I might get some feedback on adjusting an existing rule in the book 6.05 (g) page 72 of the 2013 Little League rule book to address batters throwing the bat directly at the catcher or umpire. 

 

Thanks for the candid replies.

[mstaylor]

It is simply a warn and eject. Some years back Andy Konyar, at the urging of a Northern VA umpire came up with administrative removal. LL never put it in the book but evidently it was put in the RIM as a possible solution. It is a fine idea where the kid is warned then put on the bench with no further suspension. The problem is that gives the manager the option to refuse, so at that point you have to throw him out. If your league would like to adopt the AR as a rule then the coach has no option. 

[BigUmpire]

That is kind of what we do in USSSA with the "Dugout Prison" rule.

USSSA April 1, 2013 rulebook.

"10.03- Any manager, coach, sponsor, player or other dugout personnel shall be confined to the dugout for the remainder of a game as an alternative to an ejection at the sole discretion of the Umpire(s)."

[cyclonehokiece]

That is kind of what we do in USSSA with the "Dugout Prison" rule.

USSSA April 1, 2013 rulebook.

"10.03- Any manager, coach, sponsor, player or other dugout personnel shall be confined to the dugout for the remainder of a game as an alternative to an ejection at the sole discretion of the Umpire(s)."

However, most of the time in Daddy Ball, restricting won't help.  It will only prolong the process, although it might look better in the ejection report basically saying, look, I gave him every chance to give it up and even restricted him, but he still acted like an a$$ so he was heaved. 

And with players, you can never demand they are removed from the field for liability purposes.  They have to have the option of staying in the dugout if they are peaceful.  So the difference in a restriction and ejection with a player is semantics (and possible suspensions IF there are suspensions at all).

[BigUmpire]

 

That is kind of what we do in USSSA with the "Dugout Prison" rule.

USSSA April 1, 2013 rulebook.

"10.03- Any manager, coach, sponsor, player or other dugout personnel shall be confined to the dugout for the remainder of a game as an alternative to an ejection at the sole discretion of the Umpire(s)."

However, most of the time in Daddy Ball, restricting won't help.  It will only prolong the process, although it might look better in the ejection report basically saying, look, I gave him every chance to give it up and even restricted him, but he still acted like an a$$ so he was heaved.

Mostly used for players that throw bats. OP.

 

[cyclonehokiece]

I can see that Big Ump, but still, with players, semantics with most orgs.  Restriction and Ejection have same exact effect (player takes his seat in the dugout and stays there), since there is no follow up discipline.

[BigUmpire]

 

I can see that Big Ump, but still, with players, semantics with most orgs.  Restriction and Ejection have same exact effect (player takes his seat in the dugout and stays there), since there is no follow up discipline.

 

Restriction carries NO post game penalty.

Ejection means that the person cannot participate in the next game.

[mstaylor]

In most leagues, LL,CR,Dixie, but with travel ball generally not. Most travel ball systems have no post game suspensions. 

[BigUmpire]

USSSA Georgia is not bad.

10.04 Any manager, coach, sponsor, player or other dugout personnel ejected from a game shall immediately remove himself and all personal belongings from the vicinity of the playing field and / or grandstands to the parking area outside the venue and shall remain outside the venue for the remainder of the game ejected from plus one additional game. Under no circumstances shall an ejected individual return to the vicinity of the playing field and / or grandstands upon game completion. An ejected individual returning to the vicinity of the playing field and / or grandstands upon game completion shall be treated as a trespasser by local law enforcement.

Rule 10.04 Comment: Any manager, coach, sponsor, player or other dugout personnel ejected from a league / tournament ending game (i.e.; elimination game, championship game), shall be required to sit out the team’s first game in their next USSSA Sanctioned event.

[cyclonehokiece]

In most leagues, LL,CR,Dixie, but with travel ball generally not. Most travel ball systems have no post game suspensions. 

That is my point.  In MOST USSSA travel ball tourneys (including the ones in my experience) once you are done with that game, everything that happened is in the past.  It takes a pretty egregious ejection to draw a suspension (and bat throwing would definitely not be in that group).

 

Big Ump, if that is the case in your area, good for your org standing up for having the suspensions.  However, many others do not.  If there is no distinction, just eject, a lot cleaner.  Even if I have a restriction, I am filling out paperwork, just might not be as formal.

[cyclonehokiece]

USSSA Georgia is not bad.

10.04 Any manager, coach, sponsor, player or other dugout personnel ejected from a game shall immediately remove himself and all personal belongings from the vicinity of the playing field and / or grandstands to the parking area outside the venue and shall remain outside the venue for the remainder of the game ejected from plus one additional game. Under no circumstances shall an ejected individual return to the vicinity of the playing field and / or grandstands upon game completion. An ejected individual returning to the vicinity of the playing field and / or grandstands upon game completion shall be treated as a trespasser by local law enforcement.

Rule 10.04 Comment: Any manager, coach, sponsor, player or other dugout personnel ejected from a league / tournament ending game (i.e.; elimination game, championship game), shall be required to sit out the team’s first game in their next USSSA Sanctioned event.

Good for GA.  Most other states don't have the same backbone.  National rules (look at rule 13) only require them to leave for the rest of the game.