Missed an automatic toss...and I don't care.

[Replacematt]

Ever have an ejection where an innocent statement at the plate meeting by a one person would have been the basis for an ejection of another later? Well, this just happened yesterday.

Two schools in the middle of one of the TOP two conferences in the state, so this is decent ball. I'm familiar with both teams, so I'm really not anticipating problems (and my familiarity is what caused me to miss this EJ.) Home team has three coaches--Moe is the HC, Larry is the pitching coach, and Curly is the hitting coach. I arrive at the school, go over and let Moe know that I'm there and my partner will be in five minutes, then go gear up.

We get on the field, and Larry's at the plate meeting. I'm thinking to myself, "This is going to be bad if Moe refuses to come out." I ask Larry, "Where's Moe?" He says, "He wanted to take the day off from decision-making. I'm going to be in charge today, so I'll be the one talking to you guys." Wow! A team that understands the rule ramifications of HC vs. AC...I'll take it.

Game goes smoothly from an umpiring standpoint until about the 5th. Moe's coaching third, and I end up ringing up R3 on appeal for leaving early. Moe comes towards me, we have a bit of a discussion (slightly heated, but nothing too bad,) then the game goes on.

Three pitches later, it hits me--Moe's an assistant for this game, and I didn't shut him down immediately...Oops. In thinking about it, it would have been more trouble than it would have been worth to toss him, so I'm not beating myself up over this. Had I remembered, I would have had to take care of business, but all's well that ends well. I can just see the CF at state when I toss a HC acting as AC for acting like a HC.

[AZump78]

Eh-what would you REALLY do here: Tell the HC that technically he is the AC, shut him down and then toss him? I think you handled it perfectly. Why go down that road. The rule is the rule, but for all intents and purposes he IS the HC!

[SanDiegoSteve]

No harm done. He probably couldn't contain himself, as he is used to being the head honcho. That's what you get when you are umpiring for a bunch of stooges! :shrug:

[dumbdumb]

Whoa

You mean if Gene Lamont comes out to home and says, Jim doesn't want to make any decisions tonight so I'll be in charge and talking to you guys. This is all it takes at home plate, is to give a verbal about who is in charge. I would assume without a League directive, Leyland is in charge no matter what Lamont says, even if Leyland comes out and coaches 3rd base. Now if Leyland has left to take care of a family matter, and is not even at the stadium, then yes, I would imagine Lamont is the manager for that evening, but not just by proclamation at the plate.

So, in pro and HS the base coach can just come out and say he is in charge althought the manager or HC as the case may be is in the dugout performing duties.

Just doesn't sound right to me. Help me out.

[johnnyg08]

Not legal in FED. In fact I think if HC doesn't come out, he's restricted to the dugout for the game.

Not going to look it up tonight though.

[Don]

Moe is Moe and you know it. Don't let Moe be someone else. Moe can sit in the dugout and shut up, if he don't want to make any decisions today.

[AZump78]

Not legal in <acronym title='Federation Rules (High School)'>FED</acronym>. In fact I think if <acronym title='Head coach'>HC</acronym> doesn't come out, he's restricted to the dugout for the game.

Not going to look it up tonight though.

Technically true, unless HC is tending to an injured player.

[Don]

Not legal in <ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)"><ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)"><ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)">FED</ACRONYM></ACRONYM></ACRONYM>. In fact I think if <ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach">HC</ACRONYM></ACRONYM></ACRONYM> doesn't come out, he's restricted to the dugout for the game. Not going to look it up tonight though.

Technically true, unless <ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach">HC</ACRONYM></ACRONYM> is tending to an injured player.

Read the post Charlie, coach did not want to make decisions today.

[Rich Ives]

Whoa

You mean if Gene Lamont comes out to home and says, Jim doesn't want to make any decisions tonight so I'll be in charge and talking to you guys. This is all it takes at home plate, is to give a verbal about who is in charge. I would assume without a League directive, Leyland is in charge no matter what Lamont says, even if Leyland comes out and coaches 3rd base. Now if Leyland has left to take care of a family matter, and is not even at the stadium, then yes, I would imagine Lamont is the manager for that evening, but not just by proclamation at the plate.

So, in pro and HS the base coach can just come out and say he is in charge althought the manager or HC as the case may be is in the dugout performing duties.

Just doesn't sound right to me. Help me out.

The manager doesn't need to be the one at the meeting on the pros.

[AZump78]

Not legal in <ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)"><ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)"><ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)"><acronym title='Federation Rules (High School)'>FED</acronym></ACRONYM></ACRONYM></ACRONYM>. In fact I think if <ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach"><acronym title='Head coach'>HC</acronym></ACRONYM></ACRONYM></ACRONYM> doesn't come out, he's restricted to the dugout for the game. Not going to look it up tonight though.

Technically true, unless <ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach"><acronym title='Head coach'>HC</acronym></ACRONYM></ACRONYM> is tending to an injured player.

Read the post Charlie, coach did not want to make decisions today.

You mean they guy that was standing in the 3rd base coaches box giving signs all game?

Don't you worry, I get it.

[Rich Ives]

Not legal in <ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)"><ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)"><ACRONYM title="Federation Rules (High School)"><acronym title='Federation Rules (High School)'>FED</acronym></ACRONYM></ACRONYM></ACRONYM>. In fact I think if <ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach"><acronym title='Head coach'>HC</acronym></ACRONYM></ACRONYM></ACRONYM> doesn't come out, he's restricted to the dugout for the game. Not going to look it up tonight though.

Technically true, unless <ACRONYM title="Head coach"><ACRONYM title="Head coach"><acronym title='Head coach'>HC</acronym></ACRONYM></ACRONYM> is tending to an injured player.

Read the post Charlie, coach did not want to make decisions today.

You mean they guy that was standing in the 3rd base coaches box giving signs all game?

Don't you worry, I get it.

Do you know he was originating the call instead of relaying calls from the bench?

[AZump78]

Honestly I could care less either way. In the situation described in the OP, there are two ends of the stick - I will pick the clean end, you pick whatever end you wish.

[dumbdumb]

Whoa

You mean if Gene Lamont comes out to home and says, Jim doesn't want to make any decisions tonight so I'll be in charge and talking to you guys. This is all it takes at home plate, is to give a verbal about who is in charge. I would assume without a League directive, Leyland is in charge no matter what Lamont says, even if Leyland comes out and coaches 3rd base. Now if Leyland has left to take care of a family matter, and is not even at the stadium, then yes, I would imagine Lamont is the manager for that evening, but not just by proclamation at the plate.

So, in pro and HS the base coach can just come out and say he is in charge althought the manager or HC as the case may be is in the dugout performing duties.

Just doesn't sound right to me. Help me out.

The manager doesn't need to be the one at the meeting on the pros.

What is the answer Rich. I could care less who comes out to home plate.

In HS and pro, who was the HC for this HS game and who is the Manager for this game had it been a pro game. Moe or the AC coach guy in HS, or the 3B coach if in the pros, who says he is in charge. Moe is just cooling his heels but is still on the bench.

Doesn't seem like anyone is answering the question of who is really in charge for both levels.

In HS, can HC Moe be on the bench and not be the HC by proclamation of the AC walking up to HP and saying he is HC.

In MLB, can Manager Leyland be on the bench and not be the Manager by proclamation of the base coach walking up to HP and saying he is the Manager.

Now for the 2nd question, who can bring out line up cards.

In the pros, it looks like anyone can come out with the lineup cards from what I have seen on TV. However, can anyone bring out the lineup cards for a HS game or only the HC and what if AC brings them out if only HC can bring them out.

[AZump78]

Ok dumbdumb, here you go:

HS (FED): Moe is the HC of the team. It says so on the door to his office, on their website, and on his paycheck. If Larry comes to the plate meeting and says he is calling the shots today, you can roll your eyes and say ok. But know when sh*t hits the fan, Larry ain't coming out to discuss, Moe is. You can throw the FED rules at him and call/treat Moe as an AC at that point if you wish, and by rule you will be right, but that would not be a road I would personally choose. If you want to be a stickler in this situation, do it at the plate meeting. Tell Larry,"Go get Moe for us please, I am going to need to hear this from him". Then you can confirm WITH MOE, that he is demoting himself for today and that means voluntarily giving up his right to come onto the field and discuss anything that happens with the umpires. He can then nod and say, "I understand" so then later when we comes up you can say "Moe, remember what we talked about at the plate? I will be glad to discuss, but only with Larry." Then you hope he is thinking clearly enough to head into the dugout.

Personally, like I have said already, I would let Moe discuss the play,even if he wasn't at the plate meeting, because he IS THE HC no matter what Larry said or who was at the plate meeting or what have you. But that is just me.

Pro: It matters not who comes to the plate before the game. Everyone knows who the skipper is, and the ACs know not to come out and argue/discuss anything with umpires to begin with so it is kind of a moot point. And it would be extremely rare for a non-manager to come to the plate and tell everyone that the skipper "doesn't want to make decisions today."On TOP of that, you aren't in pro ball, nor is 99.9% of people on here, so it is more constructive to keep the topic to the applicable levels.

[dumbdumb]

Ok dumbdumb, here you go:

HS (FED): Moe is the HC of the team. It says so on the door to his office, on their website, and on his paycheck. If Larry comes to the plate meeting and says he is calling the shots today, you can roll your eyes and say ok. But know when sh*t hits the fan, Larry ain't coming out to discuss, Moe is. You can throw the FED rules at him and call/treat Moe as an AC at that point if you wish, and by rule you will be right, but that would not be a road I would personally choose. If you want to be a stickler in this situation, do it at the plate meeting. Tell Larry,"Go get Moe for us please, I am going to need to hear this from him". Then you can confirm WITH MOE, that he is demoting himself for today and that means voluntarily giving up his right to come onto the field and discuss anything that happens with the umpires. He can then nod and say, "I understand" so then later when we comes up you can say "Moe, remember what we talked about at the plate? I will be glad to discuss, but only with Larry." Then you hope he is thinking clearly enough to head into the dugout.

Personally, like I have said already, I would let Moe discuss the play,even if he wasn't at the plate meeting, because he IS THE HC no matter what Larry said or who was at the plate meeting or what have you. But that is just me.

Pro: It matters not who comes to the plate before the game. Everyone knows who the skipper is, and the ACs know not to come out and argue/discuss anything with umpires to begin with so it is kind of a moot point. And it would be extremely rare for a non-manager to come to the plate and tell everyone that the skipper "doesn't want to make decisions today."On TOP of that, you aren't in pro ball, nor is 99.9% of people on here, so it is more constructive to keep the topic to the applicable levels.

"so it is more constructive to keep the topic to the applicable levels"

I agree, sorry, my apologies.

But hang with me.

I come here to learn, and maybe I can escape wiffle ball umpiring one day.

"HS (FED): Moe is the HC of the team. It says so on the door to his office, on their website, and on his paycheck. If Larry comes to the plate meeting and says he is calling the shots today, you can roll your eyes and say ok. But know when sh*t hits the fan, Larry ain't coming out to discuss, Moe is.

You can throw the FED rules at him and call/treat Moe as an AC at that point if you wish, and by rule you will be right, but that would not be a road I would personally choose."

I was ok until the last line above. In the first part it sounds like Moe is the HC period. Then in the last line call/treat Moe as an AC and "by rule" you would be right.

It sounds like at the beginning only Moe can be the HC by rule.

But at the end, it sounds like Larry can be the HC if he wants to and just says so at the plate.

Can Moe turn over HC just like that in HS. I am OK if that can be done.

I am not arguing, I just want to know.

It would seem like to me the only way Larry can be HC is if Moe is not there period, or if he is in street cloths watching the game, and not on the bench.

I just want to know what it is, because I only want the HC coming out to for any discussions, unless HS allows Larry to come out at the plate and say he is the HC. Then I only want to talk to Larry.

I just want to know what the HS rule is on this, or by chance is there no interpretation on this because it is a gray area. I am just confused.

Thanks for the help.

[Replacematt]

Ok dumbdumb, here you go:

HS (FED): Moe is the HC of the team. It says so on the door to his office, on their website, and on his paycheck. If Larry comes to the plate meeting and says he is calling the shots today, you can roll your eyes and say ok. But know when sh*t hits the fan, Larry ain't coming out to discuss, Moe is. You can throw the FED rules at him and call/treat Moe as an AC at that point if you wish, and by rule you will be right, but that would not be a road I would personally choose. If you want to be a stickler in this situation, do it at the plate meeting. Tell Larry,"Go get Moe for us please, I am going to need to hear this from him". Then you can confirm WITH MOE, that he is demoting himself for today and that means voluntarily giving up his right to come onto the field and discuss anything that happens with the umpires. He can then nod and say, "I understand" so then later when we comes up you can say "Moe, remember what we talked about at the plate? I will be glad to discuss, but only with Larry." Then you hope he is thinking clearly enough to head into the dugout.

Personally, like I have said already, I would let Moe discuss the play,even if he wasn't at the plate meeting, because he IS THE HC no matter what Larry said or who was at the plate meeting or what have you. But that is just me.

Pro: It matters not who comes to the plate before the game. Everyone knows who the skipper is, and the ACs know not to come out and argue/discuss anything with umpires to begin with so it is kind of a moot point. And it would be extremely rare for a non-manager to come to the plate and tell everyone that the skipper "doesn't want to make decisions today."On TOP of that, you aren't in pro ball, nor is 99.9% of people on here, so it is more constructive to keep the topic to the applicable levels.

"so it is more constructive to keep the topic to the applicable levels"

I agree, sorry, my apologies.

But hang with me.

I come here to learn, and maybe I can escape wiffle ball umpiring one day.

"HS (FED): Moe is the HC of the team. It says so on the door to his office, on their website, and on his paycheck. If Larry comes to the plate meeting and says he is calling the shots today, you can roll your eyes and say ok. But know when sh*t hits the fan, Larry ain't coming out to discuss, Moe is.

You can throw the FED rules at him and call/treat Moe as an AC at that point if you wish, and by rule you will be right, but that would not be a road I would personally choose."

I was ok until the last line above. In the first part it sounds like Moe is the HC period. Then in the last line call/treat Moe as an AC and "by rule" you would be right.

It sounds like at the beginning only Moe can be the HC by rule.

But at the end, it sounds like Larry can be the HC if he wants to and just says so at the plate.

Can Moe turn over HC just like that in HS. I am OK if that can be done.

I am not arguing, I just want to know.

It would seem like to me the only way Larry can be HC is if Moe is not there period, or if he is in street cloths watching the game, and not on the bench.

I just want to know what it is, because I only want the HC coming out to for any discussions, unless HS allows Larry to come out at the plate and say he is the HC. Then I only want to talk to Larry.

I just want to know what the HS rule is on this, or by chance is there no interpretation on this because it is a gray area. I am just confused.

Thanks for the help.

Okay, let's go with this--if I had no experience with this team, I would not have known that Moe was the full-time HC. It would have been business as usual, only that when Moe started to argue, I would have told him that he does not talk to me, only Larry.

There is no playing rule that defines the HC. The rules that refer to the HC refer to what he needs to do and what he is able to do, but do not state what makes one the HC. 2.10.2 doesn't do anything for definition, either.

[dumbdumb]

Ok dumbdumb, here you go:

HS (FED): Moe is the HC of the team. It says so on the door to his office, on their website, and on his paycheck. If Larry comes to the plate meeting and says he is calling the shots today, you can roll your eyes and say ok. But know when sh*t hits the fan, Larry ain't coming out to discuss, Moe is. You can throw the FED rules at him and call/treat Moe as an AC at that point if you wish, and by rule you will be right, but that would not be a road I would personally choose. If you want to be a stickler in this situation, do it at the plate meeting. Tell Larry,"Go get Moe for us please, I am going to need to hear this from him". Then you can confirm WITH MOE, that he is demoting himself for today and that means voluntarily giving up his right to come onto the field and discuss anything that happens with the umpires. He can then nod and say, "I understand" so then later when we comes up you can say "Moe, remember what we talked about at the plate? I will be glad to discuss, but only with Larry." Then you hope he is thinking clearly enough to head into the dugout.

Personally, like I have said already, I would let Moe discuss the play,even if he wasn't at the plate meeting, because he IS THE HC no matter what Larry said or who was at the plate meeting or what have you. But that is just me.

Pro: It matters not who comes to the plate before the game. Everyone knows who the skipper is, and the ACs know not to come out and argue/discuss anything with umpires to begin with so it is kind of a moot point. And it would be extremely rare for a non-manager to come to the plate and tell everyone that the skipper "doesn't want to make decisions today."On TOP of that, you aren't in pro ball, nor is 99.9% of people on here, so it is more constructive to keep the topic to the applicable levels.

"so it is more constructive to keep the topic to the applicable levels"

I agree, sorry, my apologies.

But hang with me.

I come here to learn, and maybe I can escape wiffle ball umpiring one day.

"HS (FED): Moe is the HC of the team. It says so on the door to his office, on their website, and on his paycheck. If Larry comes to the plate meeting and says he is calling the shots today, you can roll your eyes and say ok. But know when sh*t hits the fan, Larry ain't coming out to discuss, Moe is.

You can throw the FED rules at him and call/treat Moe as an AC at that point if you wish, and by rule you will be right, but that would not be a road I would personally choose."

I was ok until the last line above. In the first part it sounds like Moe is the HC period. Then in the last line call/treat Moe as an AC and "by rule" you would be right.

It sounds like at the beginning only Moe can be the HC by rule.

But at the end, it sounds like Larry can be the HC if he wants to and just says so at the plate.

Can Moe turn over HC just like that in HS. I am OK if that can be done.

I am not arguing, I just want to know.

It would seem like to me the only way Larry can be HC is if Moe is not there period, or if he is in street cloths watching the game, and not on the bench.

I just want to know what it is, because I only want the HC coming out to for any discussions, unless HS allows Larry to come out at the plate and say he is the HC. Then I only want to talk to Larry.

I just want to know what the HS rule is on this, or by chance is there no interpretation on this because it is a gray area. I am just confused.

Thanks for the help.

Okay, let's go with this--if I had no experience with this team, I would not have known that Moe was the full-time HC. It would have been business as usual, only that when Moe started to argue, I would have told him that he does not talk to me, only Larry.

There is no playing rule that defines the HC. The rules that refer to the HC refer to what he needs to do and what he is able to do, but do not state what makes one the HC. 2.10.2 doesn't do anything for definition, either.

Thanks for trying to help.

So, a HC could ensnare you in a dispute by sending the AC up there, and then later coming out to argue and when you dump him as the AC, claim that he is the head coach and the other guy who came to the plate is the AC and the AC is the one who cannot talk to you.

Does HS let someone other than HC come out with the lineup (AC or player). That is OK with me, as long as I know that the one bringing the line-up is in fact the AC and not the HC. I do not want to get ensnared into the situation that you presented.

Thanks again for the help.

[Replacematt]

Thanks for trying to help.

So, a HC could ensnare you in a dispute by sending the AC up there, and then later coming out to argue and when you dump him as the AC, claim that he is the head coach and the other guy who came to the plate is the AC and the AC is the one who cannot talk to you.

If the HC refuses to come to the pre-game conference, he is restricted. So, in this case, if he wants to claim he's the HC, I'm still tossing him--I'm not going to recognize him as the HC unless he was at the conference.

Does HS let someone other than HC come out with the lineup (AC or player). That is OK with me, as long as I know that the one bringing the line-up is in fact the AC and not the HC. I do not want to get ensnared into the situation that you presented.

Thanks again for the help.

2-10-2 says that the HC must be at the pregame conference. 4-1-3 says that the teams must deliver their lineup before game time. The two rules do not say that the HC must deliver the lineup.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Where's Shemp? :shrug:

[AZump78]

I was ok until the last line above. In the first part it sounds like Moe is the HC period. Then in the last line call/treat Moe as an AC and "by rule" you would be right. It sounds like at the beginning only Moe can be the HC by rule. But at the end, it sounds like Larry can be the HC if he wants to and just says so at the plate. Can Moe turn over HC just like that in HS. I am OK if that can be done. I am not arguing, I just want to know.

It would seem like to me the only way Larry can be HC is if Moe is not there period, or if he is in street cloths watching the game, and not on the bench. I just want to know what it is, because I only want the HC coming out to for any discussions, unless HS allows Larry to come out at the plate and say he is the HC. Then I only want to talk to Larry. I just want to know what the HS rule is on this, or by chance is there no interpretation on this because it is a gray area. I am just confused. Thanks for the help.

No worries, it is fun talking this stuff out.

Try not to only think of it in "rulebook" terms solely. As an umpire the rules sure are our "guiding light", but a lot of what we do is common sense and understanding what is going on, so keep that part of the brain going just as hard when you are out there as your rules knowledge and you should be able to work your way through anything.

The head coach is the guy whose team it is. You are going to have to figure that one out since there is no rule in the book telling you the guy with the lazy eye and a grey beard is the one to look for

Here is how I learn who the HC is, I always ask when I walk onto a field who the head coach is! If I just walk straight to the plate, I ask the home team coach who walks towards the plate, usually once he hits the dirt circle, "Are you the Head Coach?". I don't say "Hello", "How's is going" or anything until I get a "Yes" to that question. If they say "No", then let him know that you need the HC at the plate meeting.

Also, usually on Arbiter (if your group isnt stuck in the 19th century) there is a name you can find for the HC, or even a picture of him if you go onto their website. Check the teams websites out before the game. But that is another post for another time.

Now, as to the whole "whose the HC if the AC says he is the HC for today at the plate meeting?" scenario. Square this all away with the real HC, get him to the plate meeting or walk over there and hash it out- that he is really demoting himself for the day, this means no contact with umpires, etc.

If he says "yes, yes, I dont want to work today!" then fine, treat Larry as the HC. When sh*t happens, and Moe comes out on you, remind him that he is the AC by rule today and send him on his way. Or hell, just talk to him/let him vent since you know he is the real HC for the program (you verified this at the plate meeting remember???) and you want to keep things calm and under control. It is your call.

Clear as mud? :nod:

[AZump78]

If the HC refuses to come to the pre-game conference, he is restricted. So, in this case, if he wants to claim he's the HC, I'm still tossing him--I'm not going to recognize him as the HC unless he was at the conference.

You could for sure do that, and the rules would back you up.

[Replacematt]

If the HC refuses to come to the pre-game conference, he is restricted. So, in this case, if he wants to claim he's the HC, I'm still tossing him--I'm not going to recognize him as the HC unless he was at the conference.

You could for sure do that, and the rules would back you up.

Yep, hence why I posted...like I said, I don't have any heartache about the way it went, but that may just be because it didn't create any further headaches.

[AZump78]

Good topic, glad you brought it up.

[Forest Ump]

We get on the field, and Larry's at the plate meeting. I'm thinking to myself, "This is going to be bad if Moe refuses to come out." I ask Larry, "Where's Moe?" He says, "He wanted to take the day off from decision-making. I'm going to be in charge today, so I'll be the one talking to you guys." Wow! A team that understands the rule ramifications of HC vs. AC...I'll take it.

Game goes smoothly from an umpiring standpoint until about the 5th. Moe's coaching third, and I end up ringing up R3 on appeal for leaving early.

FED 3-2-4 ....The head coach must attend the pregame conference, if available.

Penalty: The head coach will be restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game, except to attend to a sick or injured player, if he refuses to attend the pregame conference.

Matt...If you would have done this, you wouldn't be wondering if he should have been ejected.

[BT_Blue]

Fellas, think about it this way. The reason we want the HC at the plate meeting is for one big reason. When we ask "are all your players properly and legally equipped" as it says in the rule book, we want the answer from the person that is legally in charge of the team. That is why we do not take a nod of the head or an "I think so" answer.