Obstruction question, Part III

[Big Red]

Searched through the threads regarding obstruction to see if this was already covered, but couldn't find anything...

PONY rules, which is basically OBR. I know these are HTBT to some degree, but I'll do my best...

1st sitch:

I'm BU. R1 and a passed ball...R1 takes off for 2nd. Catcher quickly recovers and fires the ball to 2nd but throw is high and wide to the 1st base side. SS attempts to catch the ball but in doing so, makes contact w/ incoming R1...both R1 and SS fall to the ground. Even though he gets the wind knocked out of him, R1 crawls into 2nd.

Call time, coaches come out and I tell them contact was incidental, so play will stand w/ runner at 2nd. PU then comes over, says he has obstruction, then awards R1 (now R2) 3rd based on his judgement runner would've made it there.

We step off to the side while the player is tended to, and besides the issue of him jumping what I believe is my call, I tell him the contact was incidental. He says that is always obstruction because fielder doesn't have the ball. We talk it over more after game and he apologizes for jumping the call, but stands by the obstruction interp.

2nd sitch:

In the next game, I'm off but observing and he is now BU. Batter hits a grounder to SS. SS makes a similar throw....slightly high and to F3's left, toward home plate side. F3 jumps up to his left and slightly back. Doesn't get the ball, but his glove catches the BR's helmet. Contact wasn't hard, but enough to throw BR off-kilter sideways and he wipes out going into first. BU calls obstruction again and awards BR 2nd.

At first, I didn't agree w/ either call....I chalked them up to "incidental contact," but as I thought about it more and read into the rule book, I can see his side of it.

However, I haven't been able to find an official interp or example of obstruction as it relates to this type of situation and don't have any books, such as MLBUM to check. Plus, I know I've seen similar situations in MLB where they didn't call obs.

I'm truly not sure at this point who is correct...ran it by 2 other umpires in our org and got 2 different opinions. However, if I'm wrong, so be it and I'll learn from it...thats why I'm turning to the folks here.

But, would appreciate y'alls input on this, especially from the more experienced guys, to include any interps/examples of what exactly would constitute "incidental contact" and if there's anything significantly different between OBR, NCAA, Fed, etc, if this is truly obstruction.

Many thanks.

[mazzamouth]

in both sit I have nothing, I like to protect the runner, but sometimes the play is just ugly, you can not reward/punish for bad throws and that is what it wounds like in both of these. you asked about all three rule codes, and In NCAA you MUST have the ball in order to block the base.

next time your partner comes out like that, unless you are misinterpreting a rule, then you should have him camp his behind back behind the plate. There was no need for him to do this.. if that happened to me, Im either walking off, of I wil never work with that guy again. But that is just me.

[JaxRolo]

I got nothing. Incidental

[MPLSMatt]

I'll take a stab at FED, since you asked about all 3 sets. My understanding is that in Fed it is all dependent upon the ball - since the contact was before the ball was possessed in both situations, you have obstruction, however, since the obstruction occurred prior to arriving at 2nd and 1st, respectively, the Runners should only be awarded 3rd and 2nd if you think that they would have gained those bases had the obstruction not occurred. Just my two cents.

[TBrown]

I have what is known as a "train wreck". In other words - I've got nothing.

[semper_fi_72]

The train was coming down the tracks....Cho Choooooooo

Baseball does have contact in it and it does occur.

[mstaylor]

In OBR I have nothing, they are trainwrecks. If you are going to call obstruction it is type A, immediately dead and the next base past last legally touched. In your sitches that's second and first, anything further can be awarded but you have to feel that's what they would have gotten minus the obstruction.

In NCAA I still have nothing, they have made the ruling that if the throw takes you there then it is nothing. Again if you call it then it's a delayed dead ball and the rest is the same as OBR.

In FED it's obstruction most of the time. The caveat in FED is if the base isn't completely blocked off then it isn't obstruction. If you call it then treat it like NCAA.

[LMSANS]

Let's get back to the call jumping...

I had a similar situation last week in a LL-Jr game. I was PU, partner was in C. B2 hits to RF and F9 goes for the putout at 1B. The throw is very high and F3 comes down on BR as he (BR) hits the base (maybe a half step past). BR falls to the ground, ball travels undisturbed to near home. I call the OBS and give BR 2B. R2 is at 3B and oblivious to the rest of the world.

This is jumping the call? I have always been under the impression that INT & OBS are called by the umpire that sees it. I don't believe I would have a problem if roles were reversed. Partner believes we should let the kids play the game so he doesn't call balks, INT or OBS.

I don't want to get on the partner, but want to hear more about the call jumping before Mazza leaves the field on me.:hopmad:

[mazzamouth]

Let's get back to the call jumping...

I had a similar situation last week in a LL-Jr game. I was PU, partner was in C. B2 hits to RF and F9 goes for the putout at 1B. The throw is very high and F3 comes down on BR as he (BR) hits the base (maybe a half step past). BR falls to the ground, ball travels undisturbed to near home. I call the OBS and give BR 2B. R2 is at 3B and oblivious to the rest of the world.

This is jumping the call? I have always been under the impression that INT & OBS are called by the umpire that sees it. I don't believe I would have a problem if roles were reversed. Partner believes we should let the kids play the game so he doesn't call balks, INT or OBS.

I don't want to get on the partner, but want to hear more about the call jumping before Mazza leaves the field on me.

I will admit, I have only called 2 LL games in my life..LOL so i have no idea what this Jumping thing is your talking about...LOL

I will stay on the field for this one.

[yawetag]

Let's get back to the call jumping...

I had a similar situation last week in a LL-Jr game. I was PU, partner was in C. B2 hits to RF and F9 goes for the putout at 1B. The throw is very high and F3 comes down on BR as he (BR) hits the base (maybe a half step past). BR falls to the ground, ball travels undisturbed to near home. I call the OBS and give BR 2B. R2 is at 3B and oblivious to the rest of the world.

This is jumping the call? I have always been under the impression that INT & OBS are called by the umpire that sees it. I don't believe I would have a problem if roles were reversed. Partner believes we should let the kids play the game so he doesn't call balks, INT or OBS.

I don't want to get on the partner, but want to hear more about the call jumping before Mazza leaves the field on me.

First of all, as PU I have a different responsibility -- the touch of 3B by R2 or the touch of home by R3 (one of which was a given with your partner in C). That said, OBS and INT should be called when it's obvious. It's been talked about in other threads, especially dealing with batted baseballs hitting runners.

In the OP, I've got nothing but a train wreck. F3 was attempting to field the thrown ball that happened to be in the area the BR was in.

[Big Red]

All,

Sorry for not replying sooner, but I really appreciate everyone's input.

Yeah, I initially had nothing...like Semper mentioned, contact happens, or trainwreck as y'all put it. It was a case where the ball, the fielder and the runner all got to the same spot at the exact same time. Would definitely lean toward obs if there was some lapse between the three, but that's another topic.

@Larry,

Point well taken, but this was a case where I had already made the call (incidental contact), then he comes out and w/o one word 'tween us calls the obs and awards runner 3rd. Definitely "jumping the call."

@Mazza,

Along those lines, you're spot-on. Seeing as all these coaches are around tending to the runner, not to mention all the fielders and things were quiet, I didn't make too big a deal of it at that time....just made it very clear that I wasn't happy with what he did, especially after I had already told the coaches it was incidental and play would stand. Told him if he did it again, outcome was going to be much different!

We did talk further after the game...he apologized and said MAYBE he should've checked with me first, but he made a big to-do that he still felt he was "right" just like someone else on this site keeps insisting.

I tried to get the point across that what someone feels is "right" is based on their own beliefs, morals, etc..in other words, it is subjective; and that the "correct" way is a standardized, objective, fact-based methodology that provides standardization for everybody.

Just like something being legal/illegal....has nothing to do with what an individual thinks is right/wrong, but based on over-arching common law or rule. He simply did not get it and then started w/ the "Well, I do high school and JUCO and..." About face...see ya, bye.

While watching that 2nd game, in addition to the call at 1st I swear almost every play he had his left arm out for obs. Then he calls several illegal pitches among many other things.

To top it off, he absolutely kicks the sh_t outta a tag call at 3rd to end that game that was PU call all the way. Had a real sh_tstorm on his hands after the game from BOTH teams AND the PU.

I mentioned this to 2 other umps in our org and they knew exactly what I was talking about...said almost every game he does ends the same way and they, along w/ everyone else they know, refuses to work with him.

Needless to say, and for the first time in my umpire career, I told our assignor to block me out for anymore games w/ this guy. Interestingly, did not see him at one game this last weekend.

Anyway, thanks again for all the input!

[yerout13]

yup, baseball ain't checkers, sometimes people run into each other... there's no crying in baseball, PLAY ON!!!!!

and by the way, if your partner is a moron like this clown obviously was, not only do you not work with him again, you rip him (off the field, away from fans/players) first chance... be like you running in and saying "NO THAT LOOKED LIKE A BALL TO ME!!!"

absolutely nothing more unnacceptable than throwing your partner under the bus

Edited July 2, 2010 by yerout13