Couple Questions

[24sdad]

1. I know when a fielder catches a fly ball and falls into DBT the ball is dead and the award is one base OBR 7.04 ©. If he does not fall, play on. My question involves an overthrow that is rolling toward DBT (opening in dugout, concrete area in front of dugout, etc) and a hustling fielder catches up to the ball in fair territory, gains possession of the ball, however his momentum carries him into/onto a DBT area. Does the same as a fly ball apply, or rule it as if the ball (which technically it did) entered DBT and make the appropriate awards?

2. F1, from the rubber, attempts pick on R1, but is called for a balk. F1's throw gets by F3 and rolls into the dugout. As both are one base awards, does R1 get 2b only, or does he go to 3b (2b for the balk and 3b for the ball thrown out of play)? OBR here.

Thanks

[Thunderheads]

1. I know when a fielder catches a fly ball and falls into DBT the ball is dead and the award is one base OBR 7.04 ©. If he does not fall, play on. My question involves an overthrow that is rolling toward DBT (opening in dugout, concrete area in front of dugout, etc) and a hustling fielder catches up to the ball in fair territory, gains possession of the ball, however his momentum carries him into/onto a DBT area. Does the same as a fly ball apply, or rule it as if the ball (which technically it did) entered DBT and make the appropriate awards?

2. F1, from the rubber, attempts pick on R1, but is called for a balk. F1's throw gets by F3 and rolls into the dugout. As both are one base awards, does R1 get 2b only, or does he go to 3b (2b for the balk and 3b for the ball thrown out of play)? OBR here.

Thanks

I'll jump in the hot water

1. Yes, same ....

2. Not sure. For OBR, balks aren't auto-dead, but my thought would be the same as you said, ..they're both 1 base awards...

[Rich Ives]

1) One base. In FED and NCAA if it is judged ythat the fielder deliberaterly carried (or threw) the ball into DBT then it's a two base award.

2) One base. Awards are not cumulative.

[24sdad]

Thanks for the replies. Neither have come up yet, just want to look a little less stupid when they do.

And Rich, just a clarification for #1...is it always a "one base award" or do other factors come into play. Example - F1 throwing wild from the rubber on a pick and the ball is unintentionally carried into DBT by another fielder's momentum while backing up - one base; as opposed to F9 throwing wild and the ball is unintentionally carried into DBT by another fielder's momentum while backing up - two bases?

Thanks again for the responses.

[JaxRolo]

I believe obr balk is a dead ball unless the batter hits the ball then it's a delayed dead ball.

So in this case it's a dead ball.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong

[UmpJM]

Rich,

1) One base. In FED and NCAA if it is judged ythat the fielder deliberaterly carried (or threw) the ball into DBT then it's a two base award.

2) One base. Awards are not cumulative.

1) As described, it's a 2 base award all codes, all the time.

2) Absolutely correct!

I believe obr balk is a dead ball unless the batter hits the ball then it's a delayed dead ball.

So in this case it's a dead ball.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong

Jax,

You're wrong.

Under OBR rules, if an engaged pitcher balks while making a wild pick-off throw, the ball remains in play.

JM

[JaxRolo]

Jax,

You're wrong.

Under OBR rules, if an engaged pitcher balks while making a wild pick-off throw, the ball remains in play.

JM

I stand corrected! Thanks!

I believe it is only the 632nd time I'm wrong this year. :o

[24sdad]

Rich,

1) As described, it's a 2 base award all codes, all the time.

2) Absolutely correct!

Jax,

You're wrong.

Under OBR rules, if an engaged pitcher balks while making a wild pick-off throw, the ball remains in play.

JM

JM,

So its the same as I remember reading in one of the OBR comments where a wild pitch bounces off F2 heading for DBT (which would have been one base award had it gone out of play), however the comment talks about another player going for the ball and then kicking the ball into DBT making it a two base award.

[UmpJM]

JM,

So its the same as I remember reading in one of the OBR comments where a wild pitch bounces off F2 heading for DBT (which would have been one base award had it gone out of play), however the comment talks about another player going for the ball and then kicking the ball into DBT making it a two base award.

24sdad,

Kinda', but not exactly.

Here's what the MLBUM has to say on the subject:

The following list helps summarize awards when a ball is deflected out of play:

(1) If a pitched ball deflects off the catcher and goes directly out of play, the award is one base from the time of the pitch.

(2) If a ball thrown by the pitcher while in contact with the rubber deflects off a fielder and goes directly out of play, the award is one base from the time of the throw.

(3) If a pitched ball (or a ball thrown by the pitcher while in contact with the rubber) goes through or by the catcher (or fielder), remains on the playing field, and is subsequently

kicked or deflected out of play (unintentionally in either case), the award is two bases from the time of the pitch. This ruling applies without regard to whether or not the ball would have gone out of play had it not been kicked or deflected. (See the Approved Ruling to Official Baseball Rule 7.05(h).)

(4) If a thrown ball deflects off a fielder and goes directly out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch if it is the first play by an infielder; otherwise the award is two bases from the time of the throw. (See Section 5.6 [Awarding Bases on Wild Throws].)

(5) If a thrown ball goes through or by a fielder, remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected out of play (unintentionally in either case), the award is two bases from the time of the throw.

(6) If a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of the playing field in flight over fair territory, it is a home run.

(7) If a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of play outside the foul lines, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

(8) If a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

(9) If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected.

(10) If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and drops the ball while he is out of play, or if the fielder drops such a ball and it then goes out of play, the award is two

bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was dropped.

(11) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a fielder intentionally kicks or deflects a batted or thrown ball out of play, the award is two bases from the time the ball was kicked or deflected.

JM

[Rich Ives]

Rich,

1) As described, it's a 2 base award all codes, all the time.

JM

No - DROPPING the ball while in DBT is a two base award. Catch/carry with a fall is one base unless deliberate. Catch/carry while remaining on ones feet is live and in play.

FED 8-3-3-d (and see baserunning awards table).

NCAA 6-1-e

OBR 5.10(f) and 7.04©

[UmpJM]

Rich,

I completely agree with your assertion that...

...Catch/carry with a fall is one base unless deliberate. Catch/carry while remaining on ones feet is live and in play. ...

However, in the sitch posed, there is no "catch", so your statement is a complete non sequitur.

The basic award on a ball thrown or carried out of play is 2 bases. The "catch and carry" exception of a one base award is intended to encourage aggressive defensive play by minimizing the penalty should the fielder's efforts in making a catch of an in flight batted ball carry him out of play after catching the ball.

If the fielder did not catch a batted ball in flight, he has not made a catch, and the exception does not apply.

JM

[Rich Ives]

Rich,

I completely agree with your assertion that...

However, in the sitch posed, there is no "catch", so your statement is a complete non sequitur.

The basic award on a ball thrown or carried out of play is 2 bases. The "catch and carry" exception of a one base award is intended to encourage aggressive defensive play by minimizing the penalty should the fielder's efforts in making a catch of an in flight batted ball carry him out of play after catching the ball.

If the fielder did not catch a batted ball in flight, he has not made a catch, and the exception does not apply.

JM

In NCAA at least it IS as I stated - text of the rule:

e. If a fielder, after possessing a thrown or pitched ball, steps into a bench or dugout or steps into dead-ball territory but does not fall (lose body control), the ball is in play. If the fielder falls, all runners are awarded one base from the time of the fall.

Per the BRD 2009 Item 42 (and my understanding of things) other rules do not directly address a throw carried out of play.

FED: BRD recommends treating a throw as a pitch - one base in FED. The FED table itself shows a one base award for an unintentional catch and carry. I can see no reason to treat an unintentional gloved throw and carry any differently.

OBR has no provision - BRD recommends following an Evans play that awards one base. To me the logic is the same as I used in the FED analysis.

There is really no logical reason to treat a thrown ball carried out of play (NOT the throw itself going out of play) any differently than carrying a batted ball out of play.

[soapbox]

Jax, don't be so hard on yourself. I have you being wrong only 397 times this year.

[Umpire in Chief]

My wife has the score card she can give minute to minute updates on any incident where I've screwed up back to 1991.