When did the balk occur

[Replacematt]

Matt, are you saying you would not call a balk if a pitcher "engaged" the rubber backwards with runners on ?

Also maybe I will drop the pivot foot as part of an explanation but he still has to be facing the batter.

Hmmm...he is facing the batter.

[carolinablue]

Matt, are you saying you would not call a balk if a pitcher "engaged" the rubber backwards with runners on ?

Also maybe I will drop the pivot foot as part of an explanation but he still has to be facing the batter.

Hmmm...he is facing the batter.

maybe we are not envisioning the same thing here. A RHP with his front ( left ) foot in contact with the rubber, facing 2B as if the HP was in CF.

[Replacematt]

Matt, are you saying you would not call a balk if a pitcher "engaged" the rubber backwards with runners on ?

Also maybe I will drop the pivot foot as part of an explanation but he still has to be facing the batter.

Hmmm...he is facing the batter.

maybe we are not envisioning the same thing here. A RHP with his front ( left ) foot in contact with the rubber, facing 2B as if the HP was in CF.

A pitcher in the set is going to be facing as much of the batter no matter which foot he has in contact. You seem to be envisioning the windup.

[carolinablue]

I think the poster was talking about a RHP with his pivot foot in contact of the 2B side of the rubber and his free foot in front towards 2B. Completely backwards, like he was going to pitch to the 2nd baseman. Or maybe I'm just crazy. I've heard some guys talking about pitchers trying this to trick the runner somehow. Maybe I just misunderstood what he was talking about, but that is what I was refering to.

[mstaylor]

I think the poster was talking about a RHP ( just guessing there ) with his pivot foot in contact of the 2B side of the rubber and his free foot in front towards 2B. Completely backwards, like he was going to pitch to the 2nd baseman. Or maybe I'm just crazy. I've heard some guys talking about pitchers trying this to trick the runner somehow.

And that would be illegal. 8.01b

[carolinablue]

Right, that was my point. The poster was saying it was a balk to 2B ( IITBTAOSB ) and I was saying that it wasn't, it was a balk for an illegal pitching position. However, I may have misinterpreted what he said the pitcher did. :shrug:

[Replacematt]

I think the poster was talking about a RHP with his pivot foot in contact of the 2B side of the rubber and his free foot in front towards 2B. Completely backwards, like he was going to pitch to the 2nd baseman. Or maybe I'm just crazy. I've heard some guys talking about pitchers trying this to trick the runner somehow. Maybe I just misunderstood what he was talking about, but that is what I was refering to.

And I'm envisioning a pitcher in front of the rubber, feet as if he were the opposite-hand pitcher...

[mstaylor]

I think the poster was talking about a RHP with his pivot foot in contact of the 2B side of the rubber and his free foot in front towards 2B. Completely backwards, like he was going to pitch to the 2nd baseman. Or maybe I'm just crazy. I've heard some guys talking about pitchers trying this to trick the runner somehow. Maybe I just misunderstood what he was talking about, but that is what I was refering to.

And I'm envisioning a pitcher in front of the rubber, feet as if he were the opposite-hand pitcher...

Again illegal.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I think the poster was talking about a RHP with his pivot foot in contact of the 2B side of the rubber and his free foot in front towards 2B. Completely backwards, like he was going to pitch to the 2nd baseman. Or maybe I'm just crazy. I've heard some guys talking about pitchers trying this to trick the runner somehow. Maybe I just misunderstood what he was talking about, but that is what I was refering to.

And I'm envisioning a pitcher in front of the rubber, feet as if he were the opposite-hand pitcher...

If he can pitch like that, then that's his pivot foot. If he doesn't usually pitch like a big puss, then it's a balk.

[Minnz]

BTW, the play happened during a scrimmage, so after the game on the way to the parking lot, the player and his dad were close by. I called them over and explained the balk call. When I see him again, I'll further clarify based on what I learned. Was/is this the right thing to do? BTW, it was a 12u scrimmage.

i would personally leave it be. No reason to explain yourself even more. You made the call you got it right. Let the coaches coach the kids correctly and change what they kid did.

[Replacematt]

I think the poster was talking about a RHP with his pivot foot in contact of the 2B side of the rubber and his free foot in front towards 2B. Completely backwards, like he was going to pitch to the 2nd baseman. Or maybe I'm just crazy. I've heard some guys talking about pitchers trying this to trick the runner somehow. Maybe I just misunderstood what he was talking about, but that is what I was refering to.

And I'm envisioning a pitcher in front of the rubber, feet as if he were the opposite-hand pitcher...

If he can pitch like that, then that's his pivot foot. If he doesn't usually pitch like a big puss, then it's a balk.

Again, I ask for a cite for a balk.

[noumpere]

Again, I ask for a cite for a balk.

The HS cite is case 6-1-3 Situation L.

You will never see this in pro ball so its not going to be covered directly. Maybe you need to use 9.01c3 to cover it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I think the poster was talking about a RHP with his pivot foot in contact of the 2B side of the rubber and his free foot in front towards 2B. Completely backwards, like he was going to pitch to the 2nd baseman. Or maybe I'm just crazy. I've heard some guys talking about pitchers trying this to trick the runner somehow. Maybe I just misunderstood what he was talking about, but that is what I was refering to.

And I'm envisioning a pitcher in front of the rubber, feet as if he were the opposite-hand pitcher...

If he can pitch like that, then that's his pivot foot. If he doesn't usually pitch like a big puss, then it's a balk.

Again, I ask for a cite for a balk.

So, Matt...what is the rule citation for calling a balk? Are you just trying to stump the panel? 3 down, 2 to go, Kitty Carlisle (showing my age again).

8.01b makes it pretty clear that the pitcher must stand with his pivot foot on or against the rubber, not his free foot. So, if the SOB can pitch that way, fine. If he's trying to jerk me around and illegally decieve a runner, I'm calling a balk. It may not be spelled out in a specific rule, such as 8.05, but they just didn't think anyone was going to be a moron and stand on the rubber backasswards when they wrote the rules.

[mstaylor]

Steve, I got the Kitty Carlisle reference. Good stuff.

[Replacematt]

8.01b makes it pretty clear that the pitcher must stand with his pivot foot on or against the rubber, not his free foot.

Read the thread. By definition, in OBR, the pivot foot IS the one against the rubber.

[BigSimonia]

In OBR, a pitcher much disengage while making a 3rd to 1st move. Would that apply here as well when making a 3rd to 2nd move?

I believe the 3rd to 1st move is, by interpretation, to be considered as still being engaged. Otherwise overthrow at 1st would be a 2 base award, not 1. Am I mistaken?

[grayhawk]

In OBR, a pitcher much disengage while making a 3rd to 1st move. Would that apply here as well when making a 3rd to 2nd move?

I believe the 3rd to 1st move is, by interpretation, to be considered as still being engaged. Otherwise overthrow at 1st would be a 2 base award, not 1. Am I mistaken?

On the typical third to first move, F1 is considered to have disengaged. Ask yourself if you would balk him for not making the throw to first. If he was still considered to be engaged, then this would be a feint to first which is a balk. As far as base awards:

1. If he threw it out of play on the throw to third - one base.

2. If he threw it out of play on the throw back over to first (after faking to third) - two bases.

[Bob Bainter]

Absolutely

[noumpere]

In OBR, a pitcher much disengage while making a 3rd to 1st move. Would that apply here as well when making a 3rd to 2nd move?

I believe the 3rd to 1st move is, by interpretation, to be considered as still being engaged. Otherwise overthrow at 1st would be a 2 base award, not 1. Am I mistaken?

Yes you are wrong in pro and NCAA. SInce the pitcher must disengage before making the second part of that move or its a balk having an interpreation of being engaged would make no sense.

In HS the pitcher can remain engaged and if he does then he must throw to first or its a balk and if he throws the ball out of play then its a one base award. Almost all the time though he will disengage and then he need not throw but if he does throw out of play its a two base award.

[BigSimonia]

In OBR, a pitcher much disengage while making a 3rd to 1st move. Would that apply here as well when making a 3rd to 2nd move?

I believe the 3rd to 1st move is, by interpretation, to be considered as still being engaged. Otherwise overthrow at 1st would be a 2 base award, not 1. Am I mistaken?

Yes you are wrong in pro and NCAA. SInce the pitcher must disengage before making the second part of that move or its a balk having an interpreation of being engaged would make no sense.

In HS the pitcher can remain engaged and if he does then he must throw to first or its a balk and if he throws the ball out of play then its a one base award. Almost all the time though he will disengage and then he need not throw but if he does throw out of play its a two base award.

Thanks - Live and learn

[Don]

Ok, after distilling down all the input, it sounds like I got it right.

RHP

Step and feint towards third - legal

Picked front foot up from step towards third and then stepped and feinted towards second - legal

Picked front foot up from step towards second and then stepped and feinted towards first - balk for not throwing to first

Right (pivot) foot remained in contact with the rubber the entire time. <acronym title='Pitcher'>F1</acronym> had his right foot on <acronym title='Time of pitch '>TOP</acronym> of the rubber and was essentially spinning on it.

Thanks for the help.

Highly unusual move, but I agree, no balk until he feinted to 1b, if he stayed on rubber the whole time.