Taking plays in foul Territory?

[mazzamouth]

There is almost no reason to ever take a play in Foul territory, 1 step in fair and you will see everything, the pitcher will run inside of you and the runner will run outside into foul ground... Look at this play and tell me whats wrong..

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=stl&content_id=8953453&

[txump81]

#1 He's in foul territory.

#2 For me, he is way too close to the bag. Personally, I like to be a little bit further away to widen my perspective.

However, he does get paid the big bucks, so what do I know.

[Mr Umpire]

I wonder if they are changing the mechanic due to the Joyce call. This is very similar since it is coming from a deep position of F3 and won't have the "pop" on the throw. And, F1 is covering from a moving point on the base rather than a stationary one like F3 is when taking throws. Just speculation of why he did it.

Things possibly wrong:

1) In foul territory

2) Too close but the play isn't that close and he may have realized it wouldn't be

3) It isn't me making that call to make that money

Reasons:

1) Wouldn't be able to get the desired angle and position due to it being F3 and F3's depth

2) Joyce call influenced the positioning and it may become a new mechanic or just testing to see if it works better

All speculation. Also, he got the call correct so why worry about it. If it is to test a new method, no better way than during a game. It will take a close play to know if this works better or if it is a bad idea. Only time will tell and more times of using it. I think F3 may have influenced this more due to his positioning.

One thing I would like to add though, wasn't that the same positioning Denkinger took when he made his call? And, I didn't say "missed" his call. I do not like using that term if what is done was within acceptable mechanics. It may have been accepted at the time.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[Umpire in Chief]

The umpire (I didn't get good enough a look at this to tell who it was) may have read this as a "pressure situation."

A "pressure situation" is one where the play is being made by the 1st or 2nd baseman generally in the deep infield or shallow outfield where the umpire in the "A" position would not be able to both see the the throw and the catch and be set. The most frequent time this happens is when a second baseeman makes a diving play to his left.

This is an acceptable time to go foul so you aren't whipping your head around and not being set for the play. Just remember in a two man system (in many mechanics not necessarily all - check with your local association) once you go foul it is the same as going out. You are now out of the play (other than at first) and the PU now would have the BR.

If you were to just take a single step fair you may be lookinng over your right shoulder to see the throw and have to whip your head around to see the catch at first and have that play blow up on you.

[BrianC14]

The umpire (I didn't get good enough a look at this to tell who it was) may have read this as a "pressure situation."

A "pressure situation" is one where the play is being made by the 1st or 2nd baseman generally in the deep infield or shallow outfield where the umpire in the "A" position would not be able to both see the the throw and the catch and be set. The most frequent time this happens is when a second baseeman makes a diving play to his left.

This is an acceptable time to go foul so you aren't whipping your head around and not being set for the play. Just remember in a two man system (in many mechanics not necessarily all - check with your local association) once you go foul it is the same as going out. You are now out of the play (other than at first) and the PU now would have the BR.

If you were to just take a single step fair you may be lookinng over your right shoulder to see the throw and have to whip your head around to see the catch at first and have that play blow up on you.

+1

It's also "do-able" because they're working in a 4-man crew. You simply shouldn't do this in 2-man for sure, and even 3-man this could lead to trouble.

Sidebar:

Now... as for taking 1-step into fair territory... let's recall that Jim Joyce took that position in his infamous call recently.

I was at a Rockies game last week where nearly the exact same play occurred in the middle innings. Bob Davidson was at first, and he took the position about 4 or 5 steps into fair territory - i.e., nearly 90 degrees to the play. Todd Helton had fielded the ball well to his right... took a brief look at second, but seeing no chance, spun around (he's a lefty) and flipped sidearm to F1, covering. F1 stumbled as he took the throw, and missed the base (barely) just as B/R touched. "SAFE".

It was interesting to see it from the angle that I had (albeit of some distance, well down the 1B line to my seat), but I think that had Joyce either moved farther to his right - OR - into foul territory, his call might well have been very different, because his view of the play would have undoubtedly been different.

Again, in a 4-man crew, there's no problem taking the play while in foul territory on a 'pressure' play like this. Just don't try it in 2-man.

Edited June 14, 2010 by BrianC14

[Mr Umpire]

The umpire (I didn't get good enough a look at this to tell who it was) may have read this as a "pressure situation."

I agree with this. I don't think he would have a good look and position if he stayed in fair territory. It was fielded deep by F3. Plus, if he wants to get a 90 degree angle on this throw, it isn't possible from fair territory. And, if it was F4 who fielded it, then it would have definitely been a "pressure situation".

Tough to read that in such little time and have to decide to run to his final position. Have to make that decision quickly.

[mazzamouth]

The umpire (I didn't get good enough a look at this to tell who it was) may have read this as a "pressure situation."

A "pressure situation" is one where the play is being made by the 1st or 2nd baseman generally in the deep infield or shallow outfield where the umpire in the "A" position would not be able to both see the the throw and the catch and be set. The most frequent time this happens is when a second baseeman makes a diving play to his left.

This is an acceptable time to go foul so you aren't whipping your head around and not being set for the play. Just remember in a two man system (in many mechanics not necessarily all - check with your local association) once you go foul it is the same as going out. You are now out of the play (other than at first) and the PU now would have the BR.

If you were to just take a single step fair you may be lookinng over your right shoulder to see the throw and have to whip your head around to see the catch at first and have that play blow up on you.

warren, this was the farthest thing from pressure.. F3 went to his right, and dove then turned and threw to F1 covering.

[mazzamouth]

+1

It was interesting to see it from the angle that I had (albeit of some distance, well down the 1B line to my seat), but I think that had Joyce either moved farther to his right - OR - into foul territory, his call might well have been very different, because his view of the play would have undoubtedly been different.

Again, in a 4-man crew, there's no problem taking the play while in foul territory on a 'pressure' play like this. Just don't try it in 2-man.

I will disagree here with you.. as Joyce had a great angle, he was right where he needed to be, he just like he said "missed it." Sometimes we as umpire will miss them. it happens.

I was at a umpire clinic, and we had a AAA supervisor there, super good College umpire, and we went over taking plays in Foul territory, and he step it up with F1 covering, and you can see hoe a umpire can miss this call, there were plenty of times were you can not tell if F1 touch the inside part of the bag.

anyone know how tall a base is?... think about that and F1 running to cover.. they can miss this easy.

Edited June 14, 2010 by mazzamouth

[BrianC14]

I will disagree here with you.. as Joyce had a great angle, he was right where he needed to be, he just like he said "missed it." Sometimes we as umpire will miss them. it happens.

I was at a umpire clinic, and we had a AAA supervisor there, super good College umpire, and we went over taking plays in Foul territory, and he step it up with F1 covering, and you can see hoe a umpire can miss this call, there were plenty of times were you can not tell if F1 touch the inside part of the bag.

anyone know how tall a base is?... think about that and F1 running to cover.. they can miss this easy.

I disagree with the angle Joyce had. Having a play coming straight at you is not the optimum angle, IMO. While 90 degrees is no longer the standard, 180 degrees is also not the best.

From foul territory, it's best to get a bit closer than when in fair territory, for that very reason. I think that regulation bases are just 3" at the edges, and about 4.5" at the center, so that would be reason enough to stay close to it.

From MLB.com:

The bags shall be 15 inches square, not less than three nor more than five inches thick, and filled with soft material.

As for the 'pressure' on this, we again disagree. Watch where F4 ends up - - behind F3... meaning that if Pujols doesn't come up with it, then F4 could - and now you've got the play happening behind you - also not good. That could easily have turned into a pressure play.. in this case, the umpire has to make a split second decision where to be - so he takes the spot that will guarantee that he won't be in the way. As it happened, Pujols gets the ball... but if he hadn't, U1 is now bending over backwards (and out of position) for the potential play by F4.

Edited June 14, 2010 by BrianC14

[mazzamouth]

I disagree with the angle Joyce had. Having a play coming straight at you is not the optimum angle, IMO. While 90 degrees is no longer the standard, 180 degrees is also not the best.

From foul territory, it's best to get a bit closer than when in fair territory, for that very reason. I think that regulation bases are just 3" at the edges, and about 4.5" at the center, so that would be reason enough to stay close to it.

From MLB.com:

As for the 'pressure' on this, we again disagree. Watch where F4 ends up - - behind F3... meaning that if Pujols doesn't come up with it, then F4 could - and now you've got the play happening behind you - also not good. That could easily have turned into a pressure play.. in this case, the umpire has to make a split second decision where to be - so he takes the spot that will guarantee that he won't be in the way. As it happened, Pujols gets the ball... but if he hadn't, U1 is now bending over backwards (and out of position) for the potential play by F4.

U1 watched F3 take that play, then took off to foul ground..plain and simple lazy umpiring.. he could have stayed in fair...remember to Pause, Read, THEN react...he read F1 dive to his right and catch the ball...if, and if F4 had to get it, i still don't think he needed to go foul.

Back to Joyce's angle, If the play is coming straight at you.. stay on the line, F1 peels off toward 2nd, and the runner goes foul, no one is gonna run over the umpire, he was right there to see F1 foot touch the bag.. he just Missed it.

[Guest]

Who cares.

There's 4 guys on the field, making more money than any of us ever will to do the same job, and he got the call right.

2-Man, you're going foul only if you're going to be hit by either a) the fielder or the throw.

3-Man, you have a bit more lee-way.

4-Man, in MLB - who cares?

[BrianC14]

U1 watched F3 take that play, then took off to foul ground..plain and simple lazy umpiring.. he could have stayed in fair...remember to Pause, Read, THEN react...he read F1 dive to his right and catch the ball...if, and if F4 had to get it, i still don't think he needed to go foul.

Back to Joyce's angle, If the play is coming straight at you.. stay on the line, F1 peels off toward 2nd, and the runner goes foul, no one is gonna run over the umpire, he was right there to see F1 foot touch the bag.. he just Missed it.

Well we disagree, and the sun will still come up tomorrow. BFD. :crazy:

[mazzamouth]

Well we disagree, and the sun will still come up tomorrow. BFD.

yep your right..LOL This is fun, we can both be men about it and have a great discussion. This is what umpires do discuss plays and angles..LOL

[Thunderheads]

First off, it's Mike Reilly ....

Second, ...he IS 90 degrees to the play......for all intents and purposes, whether it's "standard" or not anymore ...

Thirdly, ....he's working a 4 man, ...wearing a black hat that has MLB on it :shrug:

[mazzamouth]

First off, it's Mike Reilly ....

Second, ...he IS 90 degrees to the play......for all intents and purposes, whether it's "standard" or not anymore ...

Thirdly, ....he's working a 4 man, ...wearing a black hat that has MLB on it

fourthly, he is taking a play in foul territory when there was no need to.

this is funny that all we can say stuff about other guys missing calls, but we wanna talk about positioning, all I get ( hey that guy is wearing a Black hat..or what ever)... So because these are MLB guys we can't say they did anything wrong?......or the stuff they do is wrong, guys at the top mess up too you know.. remember a game in Det?

[Thunderheads]

fourthly, he is taking a play in foul territory when there was no need to.

Fifthly, I didn't say it was RIGHT either...did I ??

this is funny that all we can say stuff about other guys missing calls, but we wanna talk about positioning, all I get ( hey that guy is wearing a Black hat..or what ever)... So because these are MLB guys we can't say they did anything wrong?......or the stuff they do is wrong, guys at the top mess up too you know.. remember a game in Det?

Well, if you've really paid any attention at all to the stuff I post (since you used my post to reply to ) you'll know that I'm the first guy to call out something wrong on an MLB field. So, ...please leave me out of the "MLB UMPS CAN DO NO WRONG CLUB" ...because, I'm not a member:no:

[mazzamouth]

Fifthly, I didn't say it was RIGHT either...did I ??

Well, if you've really paid any attention at all to the stuff I post (since you used my post to reply to ) you'll know that I'm the first guy to call out something wrong on an MLB field. So, ...please leave me out of the "MLB UMPS CAN DO NO WRONG CLUB" ...because, I'm not a member:no:

I didnt point out you, that was just paraphrasing what alot of others guys do..I think I want in that club your in though..LOL

[Thunderheads]

I didnt point out you, that was just paraphrasing what alot of others guys do..I think I want in that club your in though..LOL

Cool! Sorry, I just assumed because you quoted me, ...fair enough, ....YOU'RE IN !!! ;)

[Umpire in Chief]

Looking at the play a few more times, it doesn't really make the textbook definition of pressure, and Reilly does seem to break as Pujlos is fielding the ball, but who knows what Reilly thought at that moment. But by textbook standards he didn't need to go foul in that situation.

It is less frequent now than it use to be but the MLB guys did to some "unorthodox" mechanics at times, some say just because they could, others say that that is years of experience and umpiring instinct

BTW has Reilly lost some weight? I honestly did not recognize him, not that you ever get a good look in that clip.

[BrianC14]

fourthly, he is taking a play in foul territory when there was no need to.

In your opinion.

this is funny that all we can say stuff about other guys missing calls, but we wanna talk about positioning, all I get ( hey that guy is wearing a Black hat..or what ever)... So because these are MLB guys we can't say they did anything wrong?......or the stuff they do is wrong, guys at the top mess up too you know.. remember a game in Det?

Agreed.

[Thunderheads]

I can't find it, but there was another play last night taken in foul territory similar to the Mike Riley play being discussed here ....

Just saying I saw another one, ...because, it'll get noticed more that we're talking about that :WTF

[mstaylor]

Back when there was an American League staff and a National League staff, the National League guys used to go foul a lot. The American League almost never. In four man I see nothing wrong with going foul if needed. I work a guy that is a Wendlestadt and a D1 staff umpire. He will go foul on a pressure play and as the PU I take the BR to second on an ovethrow. It works very well and we have never pregamed it.

[mazzamouth]

here we go again, another umpire taking a play in Foul territory when he could of stay fair, or maybe 1-2 steps foul.. an he missed the call...

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9906603&query=%26game_pk%3D265125

[Thunderheads]

here we go again, another umpire taking a play in Foul territory when he could of stay fair, or maybe 1-2 steps foul.. an he missed the call...

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9906603&query=%26game_pk%3D265125

Thanks for that! I didn't see this one ...been in California ..and the time difference and the highlights don't mesh!

Anyhow, .... I'm just a hack, but, ...is he maybe a little too close to the play here also? Just wondering / looking for opinions

[yawetag]

here we go again, another umpire taking a play in Foul territory when he could of stay fair, or maybe 1-2 steps foul.. an he missed the call...

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9906603&query=%26game_pk%3D265125

Normally, I would agree with you, but not in this case. He had the perfect angle. He was 90° to the touch by F3 and the BR. If he stayed where you suggested, I think he would have been straight-lined by F3. His problem, in my opinion, is that he was moving when the play occurred. How often are we taught to PAUSE, read, react?

What's funny is that Jerry Lane did the EXACT SAME THING the day before -- with the exact same teams (video). In his case as well, I think he would have been blocked if he'd remained in fair territory, or even a step or two off. And, just like Runge, he was moving when the play was made.