More Video - sort this one out!

[grayhawk]

Championship game of a HS tournament here in Southern California. R1 just broke up a no hitter in the bottom of the 6th with a bunt and the next batter laces one to right center field. 3 man system, U1 comes to cover the plate and now the fun starts. Forward to 1 hour and 44 minutes in the video:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21024100

Notwithstanding the uninformed "announcers," the final ruling was:

MC on R1. He is out and his run does not score.

R1 ejected.

F2 ejected.

Have fun with this one!

[Welpe]

They got it right and I'm good with the MC ruling. The only thing I think they could've done differently is for U1 to get between the players before they start shoving each other. I'm wondering if U1 originally ruled MC but did not signal it?

[mstaylor]

He didn't call MC, he called interference on the trip. Then there is the two ejections for the shoving match.

[carolinablue]

It's hard to tell but it looks like that as R1 was trying to score F2 was standing on the plate and contact caused him to miss the plate. That is why he had to retouch to start with. Could be OBS on F1.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Absolutely obstruction, and when the catcher tripped because R1 attempted to re-touch, I have an unfortunate accident. The U1 swallowed the obstruction, and the runner tried to retouch because of his swallowing of the obstruction.

Plus, how many of those clowns would have to be tossed for leaving the bench or their positions to fight? Warning? Yeah, sure.

This is a low point in umpiring. And it took three of them to f - - - it up this badly.

And the broadcasters sound like honor students from the Tim McGarbler School of Inane Baseball Broadcasting. McGarbler himself would be immensely proud of the layers and layers of inane bullSH*#.

[Welpe]

He didn't call MC, he called interference on the trip. Then there is the two ejections for the shoving match.

Read the OP, they did call MC. I watched the video a little further, they put the BR back on third and did not count any runs.

Kevin, I see what you're saying about players leaving their bench but many times that seems to get missed in the heat of the moment.

[Kevin Finnerty]

They didn't miss it. They wussed out for whatever reason and left everyone in the game, except the two dancers. The rules that govern potential violence are the ones I steadfastly enforce. Pitchers and baserunners don't enforce the rules in my games, I do.

[Welpe]

Trust me, I hear you. I bang the drum on this issue constantly in football where the penalty is the same for players leaving their bench in an altercation. There were many examples of games this year that should have been over for bench cleaning altercations that were allowed to continue to play. Part of that is the terrible system we have out here where coaches get to pick their football crews and part of that is not wanting to enforce the rules.

[Guest]

They didn't miss it. They wussed out for whatever reason and left everyone in the game, except the two dancers. The rules that govern potential violence are the ones I steadfastly enforce. Pitchers and baserunners don't enforce the rules in my games, I do.

Who else do you propose ejecting here? :wow:

[mstaylor]

OK, I watched it again. I do not have MC. I see the runner deliberately hit the catcher with his shoulder, which is unsporting but not MC. Then he goes back to retouch the plate and the catcher trips over his foot. I didn't see where the throw actually wound up. I can see calling him out for hitting him coming in. If they called an interference for tripping the catcher then the trail runner is out, not back to third. I can see dumping both players for the shoving match.

I have a question, if there was a no hitter through five, how was the score 4-1?

[Welpe]

ump_24...it's a FED rule. Players leaving the bench during an altercation shall be automatically ejected.

Michael, that's easy. Walks and errors. For learning purposes, what FED rule could be applied that would call R1 out but not rule the contact as MC?

[johnnyg08]

Looks to be like OBS. Runner appeared to be going back to touch home plate which due to the obstruction couldn't touch. They should've called the OBS right away, and maybe they didn't just didn't see the signal.

There's two ejections, and if this is FED, anybody who left the dugout area per NFHS rules is also ejected.

BTW, great post on the OP!!!

[mstaylor]

3-3-1g4 The penalty says restrict or eject.

[scrounge]

New this year is the leave the bench, get ejected by rule...

3-3-1q. leave their positions or bench area during a fight or physical confrontation.

PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game. Failure to comply shall result in game being forfeited. In (n), the ball is immediately dead, if on offense, the player is ejected and declared out, unless he has already scored. If the defense commits the malicious contact, the player is ejected; the umpire shall rule either safe or out on the play and award the runner(s) the appropriate base(s) he felt they would have obtained if the malicious contact had not occurred. In (q), a coach who attempts to prevent a fight or restore order is not in violation of the rule.

3-3-1g4 The penalty says restrict or eject.

[Guest]

I see why that rule is being put into place - bench clearing incidents do not belong in amateur baseball - but umpires need to be given discretion. Aside from the catcher and the runner, no one was attempting to start any kind of fight nor was anyone trying to incite the other team.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I see why that rule is being put into place - bench clearing incidents do not belong in amateur baseball - but umpires need to be given discretion. Aside from the catcher and the runner, no one was attempting to start any kind of fight nor was anyone trying to incite the other team.

Automatic and mandatory.

If two players are fighting, there are two, or, as in this case, three umpires and two base coaches on the field who can break it up quickly enough without requiring the help of any "peacemakers." In my case, I can take care of a two-man dance without anyone's help. In fact, it'll be over before they get there to help. I've had one high school fight and a number of men's league fights, and I handled them all the same way---by stepping right in the middle of it with a commanding voice, stern posturing and a willingness to physically prevent an escalation. A chest protector and a mask in my hand are definite plusses. (I've prevented quite a few, also.)

The way baseball players paw at each other, what's there to fear? I have a 5 feet 11 inch, 145 pound wife who hits harder than most of these guys. I've done a lot of peeling of bodies in my day, so I know the drill, and I refuse to stand there and watch a bunch of clowns piss on a game that I'm in charge of.

As for the new rule: High school players need to learn how to keep their asses at their field position or in the dugout. So, the new way to teach them is to give them an automatic and mandatory two games off.

[johnnyg08]

but umpires need to be given discretion

Except FED rules don't allow for a lot of umpire discretion.

[Pops]

It took me a while to figure this one out, but I believe that the umpire crew created a timeline of events which started when R1 was called for MC. In their eyes it was MC and they didn't have the replay to use. That MC killed the play. The BR was then sent back to third base (last base occupied). Everything that happened afterwards was handled separately. 2 ejections...there should have been more per FED rules.

Now we all might have called it differently while on the field, but I doubt if the protest resulted any change in outcome.

[JaxRolo]

3-3-1g4 The penalty says restrict or eject.

In most states. Florida ejects. Except for the illegal bat rule.

[johnnyg08]

Once that run scores, you can't take the run away. At least it seems like that's what they did here.

[mstaylor]

I think Pops makes a point, once they call MC the run can't score.

[Guest]

I see why that rule is being put into place - bench clearing incidents do not belong in amateur baseball - but umpires need to be given discretion. Aside from the catcher and the runner, no one was attempting to start any kind of fight nor was anyone trying to incite the other team.

Automatic and mandatory.

If two players are fighting, there are two, or, as in this case, three umpires and two base coaches on the field who can break it up quickly enough without requiring the help of any "peacemakers." In my case, I can take care of a two-man dance without anyone's help. In fact, it'll be over before they get there to help. I've had one high school fight and a number of men's league fights, and I handled them all the same way---by stepping right in the middle of it with a commanding voice, stern posturing and a willingness to physically prevent an escalation. A chest protector and a mask in my hand are definite plusses. (I've prevented quite a few, also.)

The way baseball players paw at each other, what's there to fear? I have a 5 feet 11 inch, 145 pound wife who hits harder than most of these guys. I've done a lot of peeling of bodies in my day, so I know the drill, and I refuse to stand there and watch a bunch of clowns piss on a game that I'm in charge of.

As for the new rule: High school players need to learn how to keep their asses at their field position or in the dugout. So, the new way to teach them is to give them an automatic and mandatory two games off.

Well hold on a second.

Once upon a time, I had a shoving match occur behind me at 2B in a high school game and I stepped in and physically removed the instigator from the immediate vicinity. And I got totally ripped for it. People told me its not Canada, not hockey, and its not our job to break up a fight.

Like you, I don't want to see two ass clowns disgrace a game that I'm involved in.

But if we're expected to stand back from an altercation and not break it up, and you put this rule into place, well then you're attempting to make a cake and eat it too. If you're a player and see a teammate who clearly doesn't want to fight getting wailed on and no umpire stepping in to break it up, what are you going to do? The answer is not just stand there and become a spectator. When they are willingly going at it, you're right, everyone needs to learn to stay out. Like hockey's 3rd, (5th, 7th, etc) man into a fight rule.

If baseball wants to prevent bench clearers, we need to start training ourselves better as to how to handle them. Hockey linesmen get specific training on how to break up a fight. Ignoring teaching how to handle bench clearers in baseball and hoping they stop on their own sets you up for situations like this.

[grayhawk]

I see why that rule is being put into place - bench clearing incidents do not belong in amateur baseball - but umpires need to be given discretion. Aside from the catcher and the runner, no one was attempting to start any kind of fight nor was anyone trying to incite the other team.

Automatic and mandatory.

If two players are fighting, there are two, or, as in this case, three umpires and two base coaches on the field who can break it up quickly enough without requiring the help of any "peacemakers." In my case, I can take care of a two-man dance without anyone's help. In fact, it'll be over before they get there to help. I've had one high school fight and a number of men's league fights, and I handled them all the same way---by stepping right in the middle of it with a commanding voice, stern posturing and a willingness to physically prevent an escalation. A chest protector and a mask in my hand are definite plusses. (I've prevented quite a few, also.)

The way baseball players paw at each other, what's there to fear? I have a 5 feet 11 inch, 145 pound wife who hits harder than most of these guys. I've done a lot of peeling of bodies in my day, so I know the drill, and I refuse to stand there and watch a bunch of clowns piss on a game that I'm in charge of.

As for the new rule: High school players need to learn how to keep their asses at their field position or in the dugout. So, the new way to teach them is to give them an automatic and mandatory two games off.

Well hold on a second.

Once upon a time, I had a shoving match occur behind me at 2B in a high school game and I stepped in and physically removed the instigator from the immediate vicinity. And I got totally ripped for it. People told me its not Canada, not hockey, and its not our job to break up a fight.

Like you, I don't want to see two ass clowns disgrace a game that I'm involved in.

But if we're expected to stand back from an altercation and not break it up, and you put this rule into place, well then you're attempting to make a cake and eat it too. If you're a player and see a teammate who clearly doesn't want to fight getting wailed on and no umpire stepping in to break it up, what are you going to do? The answer is not just stand there and become a spectator. When they are willingly going at it, you're right, everyone needs to learn to stay out. Like hockey's 3rd, (5th, 7th, etc) man into a fight rule.

If baseball wants to prevent bench clearers, we need to start training ourselves better as to how to handle them. Hockey linesmen get specific training on how to break up a fight. Ignoring teaching how to handle bench clearers in baseball and hoping they stop on their own sets you up for situations like this.

It's the coaches responsibility to break up fights. Players leaving their positions or dugout to break up a fight are to be ejected. Our job is to observe and write down numbers. That's what is taught in our association.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I think Pops makes a point, once they call MC the run can't score.

If he plates it before the MC, then it scores. If the MC occurs before the touch, then it supercedes the obstruction. So if the trip is what is ruled the MC, rather than the brushing of the catcher on the way by, then they f - - - - d it up. As it is, if that non-malicious contact that occurred when the runner brushed the catcher was actually ruled MC, then the run doesn't score.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I see why that rule is being put into place - bench clearing incidents do not belong in amateur baseball - but umpires need to be given discretion. Aside from the catcher and the runner, no one was attempting to start any kind of fight nor was anyone trying to incite the other team.

Automatic and mandatory.

If two players are fighting, there are two, or, as in this case, three umpires and two base coaches on the field who can break it up quickly enough without requiring the help of any "peacemakers." In my case, I can take care of a two-man dance without anyone's help. In fact, it'll be over before they get there to help. I've had one high school fight and a number of men's league fights, and I handled them all the same way---by stepping right in the middle of it with a commanding voice, stern posturing and a willingness to physically prevent an escalation. A chest protector and a mask in my hand are definite plusses. (I've prevented quite a few, also.)

The way baseball players paw at each other, what's there to fear? I have a 5 feet 11 inch, 145 pound wife who hits harder than most of these guys. I've done a lot of peeling of bodies in my day, so I know the drill, and I refuse to stand there and watch a bunch of clowns piss on a game that I'm in charge of.

As for the new rule: High school players need to learn how to keep their asses at their field position or in the dugout. So, the new way to teach them is to give them an automatic and mandatory two games off.

Well hold on a second.

Once upon a time, I had a shoving match occur behind me at 2B in a high school game and I stepped in and physically removed the instigator from the immediate vicinity. And I got totally ripped for it. People told me its not Canada, not hockey, and its not our job to break up a fight.

Like you, I don't want to see two ass clowns disgrace a game that I'm involved in.

But if we're expected to stand back from an altercation and not break it up, and you put this rule into place, well then you're attempting to make a cake and eat it too. If you're a player and see a teammate who clearly doesn't want to fight getting wailed on and no umpire stepping in to break it up, what are you going to do? The answer is not just stand there and become a spectator. When they are willingly going at it, you're right, everyone needs to learn to stay out. Like hockey's 3rd, (5th, 7th, etc) man into a fight rule.

If baseball wants to prevent bench clearers, we need to start training ourselves better as to how to handle them. Hockey linesmen get specific training on how to break up a fight. Ignoring teaching how to handle bench clearers in baseball and hoping they stop on their own sets you up for situations like this.

It's the coaches responsibility to break up fights. Players leaving their positions or dugout to break up a fight are to be ejected. Our job is to observe and write down numbers. That's what is taught in our association.

The umpire's job is to attempt to prevent the fight. That's what I do. I prevent fights. I also stop them when they happen. Thankfully, I am not in a step-back-and-take-numbers association, and I'm not a step-back-and-take-numbers kind of person. The guys that tell me not to do it just wouldn't do it themselves, so they tell me not to do it.

In a MSBL game, I was in A when a batter and a catcher squared off and started dropping F-bombs and posturing. I started to run in---screaming as I ran---and when I got about 40 feet away, the batter raised his bat and started looking for an opening like Juan Marichal. I ran at him and stuck him and drove him into the backstop screen. It was the same technique you employ when you take a guy out who's swinging a cue stick. You go at him from behind and stick him in the back (I learned that in college). While I had my forearm across his neck mashing a mesh pattern into his face, I ordered the catcher's team off the field and to their cars and suspended the game. It was one of my proudest moments of that kind in life (preventing a battering of a human being). The best part: the catcher was a cop. He told me, "You just saved that guy five years of his life."

As it was, the thug was merely interviewed and briefly detained (by other cops), and of course, banned from the league. I was told that it was risky and I shouldn't have gone at a guy with a bat, but the catcher and my partner were in peril, and I need to sleep at night, and I don't sleep well after cowering.