Obstruction clarification

[umped up]

When I was at the Topeka clinic, I was listening to a lecture from Jim Evans. He was saying that a player can block the bag if he is making a play on the ball. Huh? I'm not clear on this at all. How is it legal for a player to block a base? I'm sure that I misunderstood him but I even asked him and all he said was "is he making a play on the ball"? If that's the case the first baseman could drop to his knees during a pick off attempt by the pitcher not allowing the runner to have access to the bag. He is in fact making a play on the ball. What is the ruling on this? Does a player "ever" have the right to block the bag during a play? I know that plays at home are a little different given the age and the slide rule, which brings up another point. The catchers seem to move up the line (while the throw is being made to them) and the runner is expected to move around him and not make contact. I've had coaches argue with me on this and all I could tell them was that as long as the catcher is making a play on the ball, it's legal. Am I wrong?

[UmpJM]

umped,

It depends on the rule set. Under OBR (and NCAA), if a player is judged to be "in the act of fielding", he is relieved of liability for obstruction. If he blocks the base in a way that is unrelated to his act of fielding, I would be inclined to hold him liable.

High School (FED) rules do NOT include this provision - the fielder must be in possession of the ball in order to block the base. If he hinders the runner without possession of the ball, even if he is "in the act of fielding" he is guilty of obstruction.

JM

[sdix00]

In <acronym title='Federation Rules (High School)'>FED</acronym>, all three pics are most likely Obstruction.

In <acronym title='Official Baseball Rules'>OBR</acronym>, all three are legal, (assuming the arrival of the ball is imminent in pic #1)

In NCAA, 1 and 3 are probably (edit) legal and #2 might be illegal.

The Mechanigrams are from the <acronym title='Federation Rules (High School)'>FED</acronym> rules, so they indicate they are illegal.

__________________

[johnnyg08]

When I was at the Topeka clinic, I was listening to a lecture from Jim Evans. He was saying that a player can block the bag if he is making a play on the ball. Huh? I'm not clear on this at all. How is it legal for a player to block a base? I'm sure that I misunderstood him but I even asked him and all he said was "is he making a play on the ball"? If that's the case the first baseman could drop to his knees during a pick off attempt by the pitcher not allowing the runner to have access to the bag. He is in fact making a play on the ball. What is the ruling on this? Does a player "ever" have the right to block the bag during a play? I know that plays at home are a little different given the age and the slide rule, which brings up another point. The catchers seem to move up the line (while the throw is being made to them) and the runner is expected to move around him and not make contact. I've had coaches argue with me on this and all I could tell them was that as long as the catcher is making a play on the ball, it's legal. Am I wrong?

Don't argue w/ Jimmy on pro rules. He's right.

[noumpere]

<p>

<span style="color: #00ffff">In FED, all three pics are most likely Obstruction.

In OBR, all three are legal, (assuming the arrival of the ball is imminent in pic #1)

In NCAA, 1 and 3 are probably illegal and #2 might be illegal.  

None of those look to be illegal to me in NCAA because the rule on emminent play is the same as in pro rules except the fielder cant drop a leg on a pickoff until he has the ball and hes not doing that in picture #2.The third play is likely not obstruction in HS either because there is still access to the base and the base must be completely blocked in this type of play. Plus its not clear from the picture whether the runner has altered his course.

[sdix00]

<p>

<span style="color: #00ffff">In <acronym title='Federation Rules (High School)'>FED</acronym>, all three pics are most likely Obstruction.

In <acronym title='Official Baseball Rules'>OBR</acronym>, all three are legal, (assuming the arrival of the ball is imminent in pic #1)

In NCAA, 1 and 3 are probably illegal and #2 might be illegal.  

None of those look to be illegal to me in NCAA because the rule on emminent play is the same as in pro rules except the fielder cant drop a leg on a pickoff until he has the ball and hes not doing that in picture #2.The third play is likely not obstruction in HS either because there is still access to the base and the base must be completely blocked in this type of play. Plus its not clear from the picture whether the runner has altered his course.

You are correct of course. 1 and 3 are LEGAL in NCAA. LOL

[Rich Ives]

<p>

<span style="color: #00ffff">In FED, all three pics are most likely Obstruction.

In OBR, all three are legal, (assuming the arrival of the ball is imminent in pic #1)

In NCAA, 1 and 3 are probably illegal and #2 might be illegal.

None of those look to be illegal to me in NCAA because the rule on emminent play is the same as in pro rules except the fielder cant drop a leg on a pickoff until he has the ball and hes not doing that in picture #2.The third play is likely not obstruction in HS either because there is still access to the base and the base must be completely blocked in this type of play. Plus its not clear from the picture whether the runner has altered his course.

The "access to the base" thing in FED is an absolute BS approach. The photo is a good example of why. The runner will have to slide instead of running across. That slows him down and that is impeding - access or not. That should be obstruction.

[Pops]

As we all know, FED's approach to obstruction is safety related. If you don't have the ball, don't block the baseline.

However, where I have the hardest time with the FED rule is in this situation: the runner is coming home, the throw is coming to F2 but it is up the third base line a couple of feet. A good catcher will at least try to catch the ball, but in order to catch it, he has to move into the runners path. So we call obstruction because the runner has to go around him as F2 is moving into position to catch the ball. We're penalizing F2 for making a good attempt at catching the throw. Well I guess that's better than potential collisions.

[johnnyg08]

As we all know, FED's approach to obstruction is safety related. If you don't have the ball, don't block the baseline.

However, where I have the hardest time with the FED rule is in this situation: the runner is coming home, the throw is coming to F2 but it is up the third base line a couple of feet. A good catcher will at least try to catch the ball, but in order to catch it, he has to move into the runners path. So we call obstruction because the runner has to go around him as F2 is moving into position to catch the ball. We're penalizing F2 for making a good attempt at catching the throw. Well I guess that's better than potential collisions.

I wouldn't call OBS there...only call it if it prevents him from scoring. A throw that far up the line should allow the runner to score. I believe FED still allows the train wreck, but you'd have a pretty easy sell on OBS unless the runner plows through F2, then you could have Interference. Sometimes you just have to umpire.

[Rich Ives]

We're penalizing F2 for making a good attempt at catching the throw.

We're penalizing the sucky throw, not the fielding attemp.

If you allow the "up the line had to be there" approach the fielders will throw up the line on purpose.

[Don]

I am pretty sure NCAA requires a fielder to have the ball also to block a base. FED adopted same, after NCAA. OBR stands alone in allowing a fielder to block a base, if play is imminent.

[UmpJM]

I am pretty sure NCAA requires a fielder to have the ball also to block a base. FED adopted same, after NCAA. OBR stands alone in allowing a fielder to block a base, if play is imminent.

Don,

NCAA updated their obstruction rule a year or two ago to include the "in the act of fielding" exception, a la OBR. From the 2011-12 NCAA Rule Book:

Obstruction

SECTION 54. The act of a fielder who, while not in possession of or in the act

of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.

NCAA does still have a "special case" for a fielder specifically being prohibited from blocking the base without the ball on a pick-off play:

A.R. 4: On a pickoff play at any base, the defensive player must clearly have possession

of the ball before blocking the base with any part of the defensive player’s body. The

umpire will call “That’s obstruction†and then signal and call “Time.†The ball is dead...

JM

[mstaylor]

The blocking the base on a pick-off is exactly why NCAA changed the rule. LL uses pro rules but they are the same as FED on blocking. The problem with the "in the act of fielding the ball" provision was too many umpires were hanging their hats on it and allowing almost everything to be an exception. It's not an exception if it is always true. The difference that you need to think about is you can move in the baseline to catch the ball. You can't set up in the baseline to make the throw come to you. That distinction was lost on many and as a result everyone except pros have changed their rules to some stricter version.

Some years back I was working a 3A state championship, maybe a semi, but in the first inning the pitcher threw over to first on a hard A move but it was inches off the dirt. The F3 had to drop to his knees to catch it, runner dives back and hits his leg instead of the base. This was before the rule change and I had it as nothing. The coach stroked on me. I explained if he dropped but it was up then it is certainly obstruction but I felt he had to drop to catch it. I am tough on obstruction so if I say it wasn't, it wasn't. Of course if I call it he goes to second. Next guy up hits a double off the fence and that guy guy that I called out would score. They lose 1-0 and I assure I was the jerk umpire that cost them the game. Nevermind that they had a guy on second and one out and couldn't get him in, or they played six more innings with no score. With today's rule he is going to second. Same play in pro it is not obstruction, probably not in NCAA and not even LL.

[Pops]

We're penalizing F2 for making a good attempt at catching the throw.

We're penalizing the sucky throw, not the fielding attemp.

Good point!

[umped up]

The blocking the base on a pick-off is exactly why NCAA changed the rule. LL uses pro rules but they are the same as FED on blocking. The problem with the "in the act of fielding the ball" provision was too many umpires were hanging their hats on it and allowing almost everything to be an exception. It's not an exception if it is always true. The difference that you need to think about is you can move in the baseline to catch the ball. You can't set up in the baseline to make the throw come to you. That distinction was lost on many and as a result everyone except pros have changed their rules to some stricter version.

Some years back I was working a 3A state championship, maybe a semi, but in the first inning the pitcher threw over to first on a hard A move but it was inches off the dirt. The F3 had to drop to his knees to catch it, runner dives back and hits his leg instead of the base. This was before the rule change and I had it as nothing. The coach stroked on me. I explained if he dropped but it was up then it is certainly obstruction but I felt he had to drop to catch it. I am tough on obstruction so if I say it wasn't, it wasn't. Of course if I call it he goes to second. Next guy up hits a double off the fence and that guy guy that I called out would score. They lose 1-0 and I assure I was the jerk umpire that cost them the game. Nevermind that they had a guy on second and one out and couldn't get him in, or they played six more innings with no score. With today's rule he is going to second. Same play in pro it is not obstruction, probably not in NCAA and not even LL.

I dont want to start a new post for this question but does there have to be contact on obstruction to be called? I just thought of this because last year as a player, I was rounding 1B and the 1st baseman was impeding my rounding to 2nd so I went around him then stopped, noticing I probably wouldn't have made it. I asked the ump about it and he told me that If I would have ran into him he may have called it but since I made the choice to go around him, it's not obstruction. I'm thinking it is. :shrug:

[grayhawk]

The blocking the base on a pick-off is exactly why NCAA changed the rule. LL uses pro rules but they are the same as FED on blocking. The problem with the "in the act of fielding the ball" provision was too many umpires were hanging their hats on it and allowing almost everything to be an exception. It's not an exception if it is always true. The difference that you need to think about is you can move in the baseline to catch the ball. You can't set up in the baseline to make the throw come to you. That distinction was lost on many and as a result everyone except pros have changed their rules to some stricter version.

Some years back I was working a 3A state championship, maybe a semi, but in the first inning the pitcher threw over to first on a hard A move but it was inches off the dirt. The F3 had to drop to his knees to catch it, runner dives back and hits his leg instead of the base. This was before the rule change and I had it as nothing. The coach stroked on me. I explained if he dropped but it was up then it is certainly obstruction but I felt he had to drop to catch it. I am tough on obstruction so if I say it wasn't, it wasn't. Of course if I call it he goes to second. Next guy up hits a double off the fence and that guy guy that I called out would score. They lose 1-0 and I assure I was the jerk umpire that cost them the game. Nevermind that they had a guy on second and one out and couldn't get him in, or they played six more innings with no score. With today's rule he is going to second. Same play in pro it is not obstruction, probably not in NCAA and not even LL.

I dont want to start a new post for this question but does there have to be contact on obstruction to be called? I just thought of this because last year as a player, I was rounding 1B and the 1st baseman was impeding my rounding to 2nd so I went around him then stopped, noticing I probably wouldn't have made it. I asked the ump about it and he told me that If I would have ran into him he may have called it but since I made the choice to go around him, it's not obstruction. I'm thinking it is.

No, there does not need to be contact for there to be obstruction. In your case above, if you had to go around F3, then obstruction probably should be called, but you may not have been protected to second base if, in the judgement of the umpire, you wouldn't have gotten there without the obstruction (OBR). In FED, you would have been awarded second at the end of playing action if OBS had been called.

I have no problem penalizing idiot F3s who camp out on the bag or in the path of the runner with a thumb up their behind.

[mstaylor]

Annnd the umpire would be wrong. It may not have been obstruction but not for why he said. If the fielder cause you to slow down or alter your path then he has committed an act of obstruction. The problem is it isn't obstruction until you are actually obstructed. If he judges that you were only going to make your round and that's it then F3 hasn't obstructed you from going to second. Now if it causes you to get tagged out going back to first then it would still be obstruction.

Now remember that in OBR there are two types. This is a type B so you are doing what needs to be done to nullify the obstruction. In this case it is going to be putting the runner on first. Also, remember, DON'T EVER say he was going to first so he gets first. On type B you are nullifying the action, which may be a base award or it may be nothing.

[grayhawk]

The blocking the base on a pick-off is exactly why NCAA changed the rule. LL uses pro rules but they are the same as FED on blocking.

Mike, as I understand it, this is not necessarily true. I have been round and round with LL western region instructors on this and even though the language in the green book is explicit about the fielder must have possession, they then put in language in the RIM to allow for train wrecks. The common example is the poor throw that pulls F3 toward the home plate side of the bag and a subsequent collision. LL's stance is, "was the fielder in a position of obstruction prior to his movement to field to off-line throw?" If so, obstruction. If not, train wreck. I do not agree with their interpretation (especially at home plate on tag plays) because the green book's language is very clear. They purposely removed the "in the act" language, but then aded the stupid train wreck stuff.

As Rich said, even though the receiving fielder was just fielding the ball, the poor throw is what should be penalized here (FED and LL). I wish they would get rid of the train wreck stuff and make it clear.

[sdix00]

100% agree.

Here is what I think on this, since you brought it up.

IF F3 is TRULY in the correct spot to field the throw, and F3 gloved the throw and securely held it throughout the tag, we would have an out.

IF F3 is TRULY in the correct spot to field the throw, and F3 gloved the throw and dropped it during the tag, we simply have a failed tag.

IF F3 must move in to the runner's path to glove the thrown ball, AND he fails to glove it, then by definition, he was not in the proper position to take the throw, and therefore probably obstructing. In other words, F3 was not "doing what he was supposed to be doing."

So, I believe, by rule, there can be no trainwreck in this case. When a fielder is in the runner's path, he either has the ball or he doesn't and we either have OBS or we don't. I hate the RIM interp.

[mstaylor]

OK, I didn't word it very well. LL has basically the same rule as FED and NCAA. Each code is a little different but about the same. LL does not want the base blocked without the ball. If they field it just before the runner gets there then a trainwreck can occur. I don't know that they have specificly said the throw can take them into the path but as long as he has it before the runner it is OK. In FED the fielder gets no fielding exception at all, NCAA does. Obstruction in LL is the pro rule as far as enforcement, type A and type B. The runner is required to slide or attempt to avoid contact.

[Rich Ives]

LL can interpret it that way because it's their rule. You can think it's wrong all you want to but it doesn't change the interpretation.

The LL slide rule and obstruction rule sometimes come into play at the same time but they are separate rules. The LL slide rule is that the runner must "slide or attempt to go around" The rule is not "attempt to avoid contact". And in LL hurdling is a legal way to attempt to go around.