Collision...dropped ball...

[GoodGuysWearBlack]

I've been umping for about 6 months now. I think after having studied the rule book several times I tend to over think the rules. Perhaps I am over thinking this as well:

Slow ground ball between 1st and second to F3. Now its a foot race to 1st base. F3 steps on base first. BR collides with F3 and F3 drops the ball. All contact unintentional. I called the out. Coach complains that player dropped the ball. I figure it's a force out, F3 dropped the ball after tagging base first. But then again, does F3 have control of the ball? The runner has the right to run through the base and F3 is in the base path. Is this similar to a catcher at home having the ball knocked away by a slide? Does it matter if the collision and ball drop occurs on a force out or a tag play?

What is bases are loaded, ground ball to F3 who throws to F2 for force at home. F2 forgets its a force, stands on the base but is blocking the plate. Runner collides with catcher just as he is catches the ball but then drops it. Is the runner out?

Any and all help is always appreciated. I'm glad I found this site. A very helpful tool. Thanks.

[kylejt]

The out is recorded the moment the defensive player, with control of the ball, contacts the bag. Anything after that doesn't matter.

Sometimes coaches confuse this with requirements of a caught fly ball, or tagging a player. They are not the same.

[GoodGuysWearBlack]

What if a catcher is blocking the plate on a force play at home. The runner and catcher are both unaware that its a force play. The catcher is on TOP of and blocking the plate. The runner comes in hard and collides with the catcher causing him to drop the ball. At that point is it ump judgement as to whether the had caught the ball? Doesnt a catch require control of the ball? The catcher probably wouldnt have control if the collision was fairly immediate. Would you be more forgiving of the drop ball because it was a force play?

[Guest]

Kyle is right

Let's spin this another way so you may understand it better:

If you were a base-runner and the fielder was required to voluntarily release the ball after a force out, would you not be more inclined to "accidentally on-purpose" collide and / or run the fielder over in the hope he drops the ball?

You're over-thinking the situation - do not equate a catch to catching a thrown ball.

Lastly, yes, absolutely more forgiving (within reason) of drops on force plays. I want outs. Out keep the game moving and get me to a local tavern a lot faster.

[GoodGuysWearBlack]

I get you. However, suppose its a slide into second on an attempted 6-4-3 double play. The slide causes the fielder to drop the ball. If the fielder can not show the ump the ball in his glove or a controlled release to first, is the runner is safe? If so, did not the runner "accidentally on-purpose" collide with the fielder and cause the dropped ball on a force play? I suppose its a judgement call at that point.

And yes, I'm over-thinking it. Thanks for the responses.

[yawetag]

The catcher is on TOP of and blocking the plate.

Once F2 touches the plate with control of the ball, it's an out. Waiting for the tag will mean nothing.

[GoodGuysWearBlack]

@ yawetag, I am aware of that. What I was considering was how much contact (especially when that contact knocks the ball away from the defender) do you allow the runner to make with the fielder on a force play when the fielder is in the base path. Suppose the ball and runner arrive the same time at the force out at home and there is a collision. Is it obstruction or interference? Judgement call I guess.

[mstaylor]

On the turn at second, the first thing you have to determine is whether the fielder dropped the ball on the catch, no control, or on the exchange. If the runner legally slides then the contact can cause the ball to come loose. Again was it controlled and then dropped on the exchange throwing to first? If the contact is illegal then both are out and it doesn't matter about the catch.

[AZump78]

Going back to the OP-Kyle and our Canadian friend have the right idea/way of thinking about it.

You are thinking of the requirements to complete at CATCH...A catch is a specific act made by a fielder with a list of a few requirements that must be done/shown before the catch is "completed". When a bounding ball is securely possessed in a fielder's hand or mitt, the ball has been GLOVED.

The key to really, really understanding the rules is to start with the situation and break it down to the basics. Your OP did not say what happened during this play between when the slow roller was bounding and when F3 began his foot race with the batter-runner towards first.

Did F3 "catch" the ball or "glove" it?

When the F3 touched the base prior to the batter-runner touching (or passing!) the base (assuming he still had secure possession of the ball in his hand or mitt) what kind of out was recorded? If a force out, at what moment does a force out occur?

Definitions are really, really important to interpreting rules and deciphering what to do when things happen.

SO-start from the beginning with DEFINITIONS-know them like the back of your hand. Literally memorize them, then move on to rules that deal with these terms. Without the definitions, the rules won't get you very far. That is why the rule books all have an initial chapter solely devoted to the definitions of key baseball terms.

When you get into the rules, you will see all sorts of things that make little to no sense or seem to contradict other rules. Those are the things that are fun to talk about, and fire up the boards over.

If you have a question, throw in on here-that's what its here for!

Best of luck...

[mstaylor]

Mr. Brown makes an excellent point, the definitions are the basis and the most important rule in the book. The problem is because they are the most basic portion of the rules, many assume they know them and skip over them. Without a firm understanding, many mistakes are made in the other 8 rules.

[AZump78]

MST,

Please, call me Charlie. : )

Once you know the definitions, you can break down, step by step, even the most knotty of plays to the point where you see the answer is both simple and obvious. Which is good considering you will need to quickly (and decisively) make a call on the field.

[mstaylor]

Not a problem, call me Mike.

[catsbackr]

@ yawetag, I am aware of that. What I was considering was how much contact (especially when that contact knocks the ball away from the defender) do you allow the runner to make with the fielder on a force play when the fielder is in the base path. Suppose the ball and runner arrive the same time at the force out at home and there is a collision. Is it obstruction or interference? Judgement call I guess.

Sometimes, you just have to umpire.