need opinion please

[amarillo]

Here is the situation;

Left handed pitcher from the set position

runner on first base

field umpire -yours truly in B position-

Pitcher comes set right leg up right leg stepping to first (3rd base coach yelling thats a Balk, first base coach yelling thats a balk, runner on first yelling thats a balk) and there is the throw over all in one motion just like they teach it. The runner on first is now in the rundown and is tagged out. Now both coaches want to know why I didn't balk the pitcher and I say he stepped toward first and threw. They claim that when he raised his right leg his knee broke the plane of the pitcher plate and when that happens he is commited to home. My reply was as follows..." Coach I am pretty sure it is only his foot that when breaking the plane commits him to home but I will follow up."

Here is my question I was able to find the rule reference for foot - I was mistaken it is the back of the pitchers plate not the front- but I cannot find anything that says anything about the knee so short story long !!!HELP!!!

[kcfan102]

Honestly,

It depends who you talk to. I am a left hander. Left handed pitcher and a time, left handed hitters, have a natural advantage to the game.

I will not call a balk on left handed pitcher in this situation unless his foot breaks the back end of the pitchers plate. I know some umpires who won't call a balk on a pitcher even if they DO! Needless to say that umpire is left handed and was a pitcher.

I know some umpires that are tyrants when it comes to left handed balks.

The rule says foot, I call foot. Unless someone would like to correct me on that?

[BrianC14]

Here is the situation;

Left handed pitcher from the set position

runner on first base

field umpire -yours truly in B position-

Pitcher comes set right leg up right leg stepping to first (3rd base coach yelling thats a Balk, first base coach yelling thats a balk, runner on first yelling thats a balk) and there is the throw over all in one motion just like they teach it. The runner on first is now in the rundown and is tagged out. Now both coaches want to know why I didn't balk the pitcher and I say he stepped toward first and threw. They claim that when he raised his right leg his knee broke the plane of the pitcher plate and when that happens he is commited to home. My reply was as follows..." Coach I am pretty sure it is only his foot that when breaking the plane commits him to home but I will follow up."

Here is my question I was able to find the rule reference for foot - I was mistaken it is the back of the pitchers plate not the front- but I cannot find anything that says anything about the knee so short story long !!!HELP!!!

You can't find anything about the knee, because there is nothing in the rules about the knee.

Those two coaches sound as stupid as the two I had tonight.

Some advice: Don't EVER say something like "I'm pretty sure".

Calling a balk is a judgment call... all you have to say is that youd didn't have one, and let's move on.

But you were right on the knee bit, good job. (Trying to imagine a pitcher moving his KNEE past the back edge.... LOL )

Edited April 2, 2010 by BrianC14

[blp79]

no balk:big_no

[DirtyDawg]

But you were right on the knee bit, good job. (Trying to imagine a pitcher moving his KNEE past the back edge.... LOL )

Sounds pretty painful to me!

[stl_ump]

And on top of all that... let's just say it WAS his foot actually getting close to crossing the back edge of the rubber. Who has the best view? Base coaches. Who has the worst view? BU in the B position.

When I've been confronted with that, I just give them my "view" speech and it usually takes care of things.

[carolinablue]

Even if it was a balk, I probably wouldn't have called it because half the offense was trying to call it for me. They need to shut up.

[Pops]

Coaches should not be yelling "balk" in the middle of a play (OBR 4.06a3). The threat of an ejection would be appropriate here.

[amarillo]

Good call Rog I could have popped all three of them using FED rule 3-4.1 O

Man that would have caused a storm....

[NWA_UMP]

STL Ump has it...if in B, how can you see if the foot breaks the plane of the pitchers plate. Stepping toward home and then going to first...yeah you can get that by where the right foot lands, especially if it is past the 45 degrees that the rule book clearly states as acceptable :cheers:

[amarillo]

And on top of all that... let's just say it WAS his foot actually getting close to crossing the back edge of the rubber. Who has the best view? Base coaches. Who has the worst view? BU in the B position.

When I've been confronted with that, I just give them my "view" speech and it usually takes care of things.

Tried that and heard so we have to deal with balks all day then. Then I tried how about you pay for a third umpire.... I know that was baiting but damn it, It sure felt good

[DirtyDawg]

Gotta watch telling a coach you can't see it from your angle. That will get you in some deep sh!t here!!

[Umpire in Chief]

Also don't ever mention the 45' mark either that will get you in some garbage where there is no rule to back you up.

[UmpJM]

Also don't ever mention the 45' mark either that will get you in some garbage where there is no rule to back you up.

Warren,

The "45 degree" language is explicitly incorporated into the text of both FED (6.2.4B) and NCAA (9-1-a(6) ) rules. Though the OBR book does not contain this language, the JEA also mentions it in the discussion of an 8.05© balk.

In terms of the pitcher breaking the back plane of the rubber with the knee of his stride leg (and NOT the free foot), under FED and OBR it is legal, while under NCAA the pitcher will have balked if his knee crosses the back plane and he then throws to 1B or 3B .

JM

[mstaylor]

I have told coaches it is a seventy dollar call. Another seventy dollars gets you the guy with the same look as you. Balk is a word reserved for umpires and the next time they use is going to cause somebody to leave.

If the coach left his box then you could gotten an ejection, a restriction and an out all on the same play.

[kcfan102]

I have told coaches it is a seventy dollar call. Another seventy dollars gets you the guy with the same look as you. Balk is a word reserved for umpires and the next time they use is going to cause somebody to leave.

If the coach left his box then you could gotten an ejection, a restriction and an out all on the same play.

That's exactly right. It's not easy (darn near impossible) to see either the "45' rule" or if the pitcher is breaking the rear plane of the rubber.

:ranton:Now this 45' rule... I hate the term for it. It should be... more of a guideline that umpires, and only umpires, use. UmpJM this is going to sound like I'm picking at your post but I swear I'm just on a rant about the "rule" in general. I know you said "language" and you didn't say that it was in the book.

Tell me, where exactly 45' degrees? All the definite lines in baseball are marked. Batter's boxes, fair/foul lines, runner's lane, heck even the catcher's box it supposed to be marked. I hear of the 45' line rule yet, have never seen a line drawn at a 45' degree angle from the pitchers plate?

...it's because there is no 45' rule; not in OBR, not in FED, I don't have the NCAA book. It's merely a tool that umpires use when deciding if a pitcher stepped more toward first than he did home (or vice versa). Draw an imaginary line in the dirt at 45' if you wish. But DO NOT tell a coach about 45 degrees. DO NOT let a coach talk to you about 45'. That number is silly and obsolete.

"Hey Brandon, that lefty crossed 45 degrees, you gonna call somethin?"

"No coach, I only had him goin 44."

If you call this balk (which I have many times), don't ask your PU to whip out a protractor and take the batters bat and go out to the mound a draw a line at 45'. That's dumb, but in my mind, if you whip out this imaginary rule, that's what you'll have to do. When you bang 'em on it and they ask for an explanation, simply tell them they need to step more towards first [or third]. Tell them that the way they stepped was illegal deception to the runner.

As we all might know:

The Baseball Bible says... (OBR)

8.05

c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;

and

And the Satanic Baseball scripture reads... (FED)

Rule 6-2 Art. 4 (

failing to step with the non-pivot foot directly toward a base (occupied or unoccupied) when throwing or feinting there in an attempt to put out, or drive back a runner; or throwing or feinting.... blah blah

I don't see 45' anywhere. :lookup

Edited April 2, 2010 by kcfan102

[UmpJM]

...

UmpJM this is going to sound like I'm picking at your post but I swear I'm just on a rant about the "rule" in general. I know you said "language" and you didn't say that it was in the book.

Actually, I did say it was in the FED ans NCAA (though not OBR) books, because it is.

...it's because there is no 45' rule; not in OBR, not in FED, I don't have the NCAA book.

...I don't see 45' anywhere.

To see it in the FED Book, all you need to do is read the case play I cited in my post above. Since you don't have the NCAA book, this is what it says:

(6) The pitcher must step directly and gain ground toward a base in an attempt to pick off a runner. “Directly” is interpreted to mean within a 45-degree angle measuring from the pivot foot toward the base the pitcher is throwing to or feinting a throw.

However, I largely concur with the remainder of your post.

What I find amusing is that 45 degrees is a mathematically/geometrically INCORRECT description of what they are trying to say (because the rubber is not "centered" in the diamond) and it is the two "scholastic" codes that include the language. If a pitcher does step at a "45 degree angle" while throwing a pick to 1B, he will have balked because he will have stepped more in the direction of home than 1B.

My only point is that it would be incorrect to say it's not "in the book" should it happen to come up in a discussion with a coach in a FED/NCAA game - could make you look bad.

JM

Edited April 3, 2010 by UmpJM

[kcfan102]

Very good. I had to clear the dust off my case book.

However, I wonder why they mention it in the case book but on in the rules book?

[kwiggie]

Good call Rog I could have popped all three of them using FED rule 3-4.1 O

Man that would have caused a storm....

I agree, warnings issued

Balk is a word reserved for umpires and the next time they use is going to cause somebody to leave.

Followed up with this little gem of a phrase, NICE.

Didn't the NCAA experiment with an actual 45 degree line that was marked on the field some years ago?

[Umpire in Chief]

Didn't the NCAA experiment with an actual 45 degree line that was marked on the field some years ago?

I know somebody experimented w/ it I thought it was MiLB but could be wrong.

Either way it got pulled quickly.

[mstaylor]

Actually it was MLB experimented with it in spring training 15 or 20 years ago. They marked a line on the pitcher's mound pointing at the halfway point between the two. It is correct that it isn't 45 degrees but it is halfway so the term came into usage.

It is mentioned in several manuals that are used either in the pro schools or at the MLB level.

[amarillo]

I have been really studying up on balks.. Went to the MLB site and watched video highlights of Balk calls to see if I could spot the transgression. It payed off in spades today.. runner on first pitcher has ball in pitching hand comes set and then pulls the ball back out and stops. THATS A BALK runner moves to second me standing there with huge grin yeah baby...