dropped 3rd

[th3]

no one on....batter swings at atrike 3 in the dirt and then starts to walk back to his dugout...ball continues throw a hole in the backstop...does he get 1st?

[mstaylor]

Yes.

[DirtyDawg]

Has he already made it back into the dugout?

[mstaylor]

Doesn't matter, it becomes an award.

[LMSANS]

I'm working off the top of my head here but, in OBR the BR is called out when he leaves the dirt circle, right? And then the ball goes out and he is awarded the base? I got a tough time accepting that one. :WTF

Edited October 14, 2009 by LMSANS
typo

[jim knight]

Pretty sure it would depend on the level of play... OBR if he leaves the circle he is out no award.

[BrianC14]

I'm working off the top of my head here but, in OBR the BR is called out when he leaves the dirt circle, right? And then the ball goes out and he is awarded the base? I got a tough time accepting that one.

I'm with you, Larry - I've got an out on this.

Why would I award a base to a batter because of a faulty fence? Suppose the batter is on his home field - there's no way I'm giving him a base when his club/school is largely to blame for the poor conditions.

Even at that, the OBR rule is clear (reason # 4,231 that I don't care for most of FED interps) if he leaves the dirt circle, he's abandoned his effort to obtain first base. Batter's out.

I had a similar sitch in a FED game last spring... swinging 3rd strike, and a passed ball, with R3 trying to score. Batter moved back, out of the circle, and watched the play at home. After the play, batter still stood there as time was called (defense argued the call). Only AFTER the argument the batter attempted to run to first. No, sorry. That chance had long passed. Batter's out.

[noumpere]

The question does point out the contradiction in the rules -- one says award first, the other says the batter is out.

I'm going with the award in this situation. I think the rule was put in to handle the situation where F2 gloves (but does not catch) the pitch, and then BR walks away. Under the old rule, F2 had to wait for the BR to reach the dugout, or risk a throw (without a runner), or assume that BR would reach the dugout to get an out. The new rule allows the BR to "give himself up."

I don't think the rule was meant to handle the play under discussion. Further, since the pitch happened first, and no subsequent action affected the pitch going out of play, I'd judge the defense screwed up more -- and I'd punish them.

I understand how others can come to a different conclusion, though.

[Finnblue]

I'd go with timing. If the batter manages to leave the circle before the ball goes out of play, I'll call him out.

[BrianC14]

I'd go with timing. If the batter manages to leave the circle before the ball goes out of play, I'll call him out.

That's a good way to look at it, Finn!

[carolinablue]

Just a note since there are some guys that do LL ball here such as myself. Straight OBR. is the dirt circle, but LL is the dugout or other dead ball area. So in the case of LL, I have a hard time imagining a B/R making it to the dugout before a uncaught third strike goes under the fence.

[Aging_Arbiter]

and just for my as posted before, I like to refer to it as an uncaught 3rd strike.

[BrianC14]

and just for my as posted before, I like to refer to it as an uncaught 3rd strike.

Hmmm... some semantics at work here....

This could turn into an interesting conversation that could well last for 3 or 4 beers, at least.

For instance, after beer # 1, one might be inclined to ask,

"OK, let's call it an 'uncaught 3rd strike'... but what do we call it if the the pitcher throws a patented 58-footer, and the catcher short-hops it off the dirt?"

:shrug:

[DirtyDawg]

The reason why I asked is because of what has been brought up. My interpretation of the dropped third strike rule says that the player has to attempt at the base before going into the designated "dead ball" area. If the batter made no attempt to get to the base that means he does not understand the rule. This to me means he is undeserving of the base. You see it all the time in little league and other youth leagues. The catcher cannot handle the third strike but the batter does not have the knowledge yet burned into his head that he is able to advance to an unoccupied first base therefore giving up his right to attempt at the bag and thus being called out.

On the same subject but different topic, when first base is occupied with the runner stealing second on the strike three pitch, if the catcher does drop the ball, when do you call the batter out? I've seen people kill the play when it happens, but the way I was exposed to the situation is you let all play end before making your ruling. Thoughts?

[frenchblue]

On the same subject but different topic, when first base is occupied with the runner stealing second on the strike three pitch, if the catcher does drop the ball, when do you call the batter out? I've seen people kill the play when it happens, but the way I was exposed to the situation is you let all play end before making your ruling. Thoughts?

With less than two outs and 1st base occupied before the pitch and an uncaught stike three takes place, you call the batter out immediatly.

With two outs or 1st base unoccupied before the pitch and an uncaught 3rd strike takes place, the BR becomes a runner right away.

With reference to what you are saying, never kill the play unless 6.06 occurs which is "batter is out for illegal action when..." You can have other times, of course, to kill the play, but this is the only real time in the situation you described that would result in killing the play.

A pitch is considered uncaught if the ball touches the ground before being caught, or if the ball is dropped after being grasped.

OBR rules 6.05 and 6.09 cover this.

With references to other posts on the thread, 6.06 ( comment was added after the pierzynski inncident in the LCS in 05 involving Doug Eddings. It states:

6.06 ( comment: "A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be declared out once he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate"

Hope this helps...

[Aging_Arbiter]

Hmmm... some semantics at work here....

This could turn into an interesting conversation that could well last for 3 or 4 beers, at least.

For instance, after beer # 1, one might be inclined to ask,

"OK, let's call it an 'uncaught 3rd strike'... but what do we call it if the the pitcher throws a patented 58-footer, and the catcher short-hops it off the dirt?"

You buy the plane ticket..........I'll buy the beer. I've always wanted to see Colorado in the winter :shrug:

[BrianC14]

The reason why I asked is because of what has been brought up. My interpretation of the dropped third strike rule says that the player has to attempt at the base before going into the designated "dead ball" area. If the batter made no attempt to get to the base that means he does not understand the rule. This to me means he is undeserving of the base. You see it all the time in little league and other youth leagues. The catcher cannot handle the third strike but the batter does not have the knowledge yet burned into his head that he is able to advance to an unoccupied first base therefore giving up his right to attempt at the bag and thus being called out.

On the same subject but different topic, when first base is occupied with the runner stealing second on the strike three pitch, if the catcher does drop the ball, when do you call the batter out? I've seen people kill the play when it happens, but the way I was exposed to the situation is you let all play end before making your ruling. Thoughts?

You call the batter out right away, because he's out when you called strike three. Alternatively he's out on the attempt to hit the pitch for strike 3 (swinging strike). There is no "play" for you to allow to happen. If F2 wants to throw to first base, that's his business; but if you purposely delay your "out" call, and he takes that to mean there is a rulebook reason to throw down to first (i.e., your non-call induced him to throw) then if he airmails that ball so that R1 can advance beyond the next base, then you're going to have a irate Defensive Manager on your hands, and who could blame him? Call the out when it happens... Strike 3? No advance possible on a dropped (uncaught!) 3rd strike? Then the batter is out - call it!

Edited to add: Sheesh. I could have just said, "Read Finn's post." :)

Edited October 15, 2009 by BrianC14
Good post, Finn.

[BrianC14]

You buy the plane ticket..........I'll buy the beer. I've always wanted to see Colorado in the winter

Hmmm... be advised the beer might be more expensive than a plane ticket.

Chimay Grande Reserve... 750 ml bottle, ABV 9.00%. About $11.00 at the local. Each.

We may need a few of these...

Edited October 15, 2009 by BrianC14

[Don]

Timing play in my view. However, can't really see the batter not taking off for 1B if ball goes to backstop. If it is caught on the first hop, or clearly blocked, I can see batter not bothering to run.

[Finnblue]

Hmmm... be advised the beer might be more expensive than a plane ticket.

Chimay Grande Reserve... 750 ml bottle, ABV 9.00%. About $11.00 at the local. Each.

We may need a few of these...

Hey guys, would you please stop that! I'm already too thirsty!

MS

[DirtyDawg]

I agree that you call the batter out right away, but we are dealing with kids here. They here the batters out, but they think that is your routine strike three call so he decides to run thus confusing the catcher. This then would be cause for interference due to the fact that the batter is confusing the catcher. Say the runner did not run to second and the catcher then proceeds to throw to first base because he sees the kid at the plate going to first and he cannot make a tag. Would you allow what happened to happen or would you bring the kid at second back to first since there was technically an interference on the play.

[BrianC14]

I agree that you call the batter out right away, but we are dealing with kids here. They here the batters out, but they think that is your routine strike three call so he decides to run thus confusing the catcher. This then would be cause for interference due to the fact that the batter is confusing the catcher. Say the runner did not run to second and the catcher then proceeds to throw to first base because he sees the kid at the plate going to first and he cannot make a tag. Would you allow what happened to happen or would you bring the kid at second back to first since there was technically an interference on the play.

There's no reason to bring R1 back; he can advance at his own risk on this or any other time, as the ball is still live. Cause for interference? No way. It's the defensive player's job to know the situation. Yes, they may be kids, but if F2 throws that ball away, you can't just stop the action and put people back.

He won't do it a second time, that's for sure. Let 'em learn from their mistakes. "Do overs" aren't allowed on this.

[noumpere]

I agree that you call the batter out right away, but we are dealing with kids here. They here the batters out, but they think that is your routine strike three call so he decides to run thus confusing the catcher. This then would be cause for interference due to the fact that the batter is confusing the catcher.

First, your "routine strike three call" should not include the phrase "batter's out." Second, even if the batter decides to try for first, it's not interference. It's up to the defense to know the rule. And, if you so desire, when the batter tries for first is the time to include the phrase "batter's out."

[LMSANS]

When working with younger players, I have been known to say "batter's out" more than once.

[BrianC14]

First, your "routine strike three call" should not include the phrase "batter's out." Second, even if the batter decides to try for first, it's not interference. It's up to the defense to know the rule. And, if you so desire, when the batter tries for first is the time to include the phrase "batter's out."

Good point - and this brings up the necessity for using the term "Strike 3, no catch!" with the 'safe' mechanic on an uncaught 3rd strike when first base is open or when it's occupied with 2 out.

A "routine" third strike call in that sitch would be a problem, as we've seen. :shrug: