obstruction and then coaches interference

[th3]

this was in a u12 softball game (asa) - i assume the ruling would be the same for other rules....let me know what you think..

runner from second coming to and around third on a hit to the outfield...she is obstructed by both the SS (standing close to 3rd) and 3B (right at/on the base) and, as a result, kind of gets knocked a little wide and winds up in the arms of the 3rd base coach (who certainly didnt intend to assist her, but that was the result)..i had the delayed dead ball OBS but then called the runner out on coaches interference....was I right?

[mstaylor]

An excellent question and a HTBT. A lot depends on the what the coach did before the collision. If he is in a bad spot or isn't doing anything to get out of the way then it is likely you were correct. If he is trying to clear and the F5 knocks the runner into him then I'm going to allow it. This may actually be a 9.01c moment, so do what you think best penalizes the guilty party. The defense obstructed the runner twice causeing the runner to run into the coach. If there is any way posible penalize the defense.

[th3]

i dont know what 9.01C is...and he was definetly in a bad spot..i had actually talked to him between innings earlier in the game telling him that his closeness to to the runners might get him in trouble...

[frenchblue]

i dont know what 9.01C is...and he was definetly in a bad spot..i had actually talked to him between innings earlier in the game telling him that his closeness to to the runners might get him in trouble...

9.01 C: Each umpire has the authority to rule on any point not specifically

covered in these rules.

I agree with MST, it is definently a HTBT situation. If F5 did in fact have an impact on R2 running into the 3rd base coach, you could have OBS. It would be Type B OBS (delayed dead ball), and in your judgement, if R2 could get home, award him home. If in your judgement that R2 couldn't get home, then he is not protected on his way home (if he chooses to try and advance...."runner's advance at their own risk")

This HTBT definently could use 9.01 C, but use common sense. Try to think about what would happen if the OBS didn't happen. Would the base coach have touched R2? Where would R2 have gotten if he wasn't obstucted?

My :TD:

[th3]

i think the obs probably caused the runner to run into the coach, but i also think the coach ws way to close to the base/runner...

[mstaylor]

9.01c is the baseball rule that allows you to rule on something not governed by the rules. If you have already told to tell the coach to stay back and he didn't then the offenses are two to two. I would still be inclined to award third but you have to decide if the runner would have hit the coach without the obstruction.

[Aging_Arbiter]

9.01c is the baseball rule that allows you to rule on something not governed by the rules. If you have already told to tell the coach to stay back and he didn't then the offenses are two to two. I would still be inclined to award third but you have to decide if the runner would have hit the coach without the obstruction.

My first question would be (not knowing ASA rules, and since the OP was ASA based), do they have a 9.01c equivalent? Maybe they spell it out differently?

[mstaylor]

As far as I know every rule set has an equivalent, including basketball, football and others.

[BHanlon]

i think the obs probably caused the runner to run into the coach, but i also think the coach ws way to close to the base/runner...

Then I am returning the runner to 3B on OBS

[th3]

are you killing the play and putting the runner at 3rd?

if i am not enforcing the coaches interfence, im just ignoring it and enforcing the obs if necessary?

i look at the play kind of like a runner who misses 2nd because the 2nd baseman was blocking or standing on the bag...so he goes around...hes either safe at 3rd or is awarded 3rd for OBS...if appealed (if he didnt retouch), hes out...so the OBS caused the situation but the offense is still penalized

[kylejt]

There are plenty of rules, in any book, to cover this situation, so no need for 9.01©.

So first you've got obstruction by SS. At that time, was there any chance for the runner to make it home? If not, then move on to the next obstruction. Did that obstruction cause the runner not to have a chance to score? If the runner could have scored in either instance, call time at the conclusion of the play, and award her the plate. Or, you can simple protect the runner back third.

You also have to judge if the OBS caused the contact. Don't worry about the coaches position. There's no penalty for being out of the box on this play. You said 3B caused the off course adventure, and there was no intentional assist.

So I've either got the runner scoring, or being protected back to third.

[mstaylor]

There are plenty of rules, in any book, to cover this situation, so no need for 9.01©.

So first you've got obstruction by SS. At that time, was there any chance for the runner to make it home? If not, then move on to the next obstruction. Did that obstruction cause the runner not to have a chance to score? If the runner could have scored in either instance, call time at the conclusion of the play, and award her the plate. Or, you can simple protect the runner back third.

You also have to judge if the OBS caused the contact. Don't worry about the coaches position. There's no penalty for being out of the box on this play. You said 3B caused the off course adventure, and there was no intentional assist.

So I've either got the runner scoring, or being protected back to third.

I certainly agree but I do think the coach has some responsibility in this play. I agree that he doesn't need to be in the box but he shouldn't be so close to the base that he can become involved either. If the calling umpire deems that he would have interfered without the obstruction, he could be held responsible. I would err toward enforcing the obstruction but the possibility exists that he could be guilty of interference.

I think we are on the same page for the most part, I'm just leaving the door open for a different ending. HTBT.

[noumpere]

kind of like a runner who misses 2nd because the 2nd baseman was blocking or standing on the bag...so he goes around...hes either safe at 3rd or is awarded 3rd for OBS...if appealed (if he didnt retouch), hes out...so the OBS caused the situation but the offense is still penalized

You're wrong on this play. Do not uphold the appeal at second if the obstruction was the casue of the missed base.

[LMSANS]

Definitely HTBT...but my initial reaction is award the bases for the obstruction. In ASA, it is DDB. The coaches inteference (here is where the HTBT really comes into play) is caused by the obstruction, I'm ignoring.

ASA rules support the call either way without invoking the 9.01c equiv. It's a judgement call.

[th3]

noump - what do you base that on? i've had it explained differently and want to know why im ruling whatever inm ruling

[Dragon29]

th3,

I agree w/kylejt & others who say, barring any intentional interference by the 3B Coach this is OBS all the way. No need for 9.01© here - I'm not penalizing the offense just because the 3B coach might not have been in the coaches' box at the time - they never stay there during a play, often running almost all the way to home in an effort to coach their players and there's no rule against it.

HTBT for sure, but from your description, I've got OBS on F5 and a run scored.

[th3]

why is it a "delayed dead ball" and not a "delayed time"?

[mstaylor]

noump - what do you base that on? i've had it explained differently and want to know why im ruling whatever inm ruling

noump is correct. If the obstruction causes a missed base then you can't uphold the appeal. Now you can miss a base during an obstruction and be out for the miss if the obstruction isn't the reason.

[th3]

thats why i'm here! is there a rule that states that...or an interpretation?

[mstaylor]

It's an interp, I will try to dig out my MLBUM to quote. If it comes up in a game I simply say the common interp is this. I have been around long enough that is enough. This may not work for somebody with less experience.

[Dragon29]

ms - I don't know that you need your MLBUM.

th3 - It's an interpretation of the rules. If Defensive OBS is the cause of a missed base, then it supercedes the missed base.

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball, impedes the progress of any runner. . . (NOTE: Obstruction shall be called on a defensive player who blocks off a base, base line or home plate from a base runner while not in possession of the ball.) [my emphasis]

The Note spells it out pretty clearly. By definition, if a base is blocked off, the runner won't be able to touch it.

[LMSANS]

why is it a "delayed dead ball" and not a "delayed time"?

I've never heard, or seen in the rule book, the term "delayed time". Delayed dead ball is defined in the ASA rule book.

In summary, the umpire is delaying the call until the playing action has ceased and announces the ball dead (time).

[PeteBooth]

this was in a u12 softball game (asa) - i assume the ruling would be the same for other rules....let me know what you think..

runner from second coming to and around third on a hit to the outfield...she is obstructed by both the SS (standing close to 3rd) and 3B (right at/on the base) and, as a result, kind of gets knocked a little wide and winds up in the arms of the 3rd base coach (who certainly didnt intend to assist her, but that was the result)..i had the delayed dead ball OBS but then called the runner out on coaches interference....was I right?

The rule code you use is ESSENTIAL in answering many of these type OP's

Why!

In FED BASEBALL rules, the obstructed runner is AUTOMATICALLY awarded at least one base beyond his / her point of the obstruction.

In the OP F5 was standing on third base and obstructed R2, so in FED R2 is awarded Home, which would make the coaches interference (which is a HTBT situation) moot.

Now if you use OBR there are 2 types of OBS "A" and "B"

In your OP we have Type 'B" OBS because at the time of the obstruction no play was being made on the runner.

In Type "B" OBS the umpire will award bases IF ANY that nullify the act of OBS.

Therefore, assuming you awarded third base only and the 3B coach assited the runner AFTER rounding the 3B bag, you have OBS, but the runner was trying to advance PAST her protected to base on her own peril and therefore, would be declared out because of coaches interference.

As far as judging coaches interference as mentioned sounds like we WHTBT, however, if the OBS is the reason the runner ended up in the 3 base coaches arms, I would most likely not call interference and simply enforce the OBS.

In Summary: You need to look up the softball rule concerning OBS for your league. Even in softball you have different rule sets. There is ASA, then there is FED and USSSA I believe has their own rules as well, so as mentioned your "first stop" should be the rule-book. If the runner is AUTOMATICALLY awarded at least one base beyond the point of OBS, then the coaches actions are irrelevant.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

why is it a "delayed dead ball" and not a "delayed time"?

In reality the ball is either Live or Dead, the term "delayed dead" is a term for umpires so that we KNOW when to enforce.

Example: CI or CO for FED is a "dealyed dead ball"

Why!

suppose the batter is obstruced/interfered with by F2 but still manages to hit a rope over F7's head. We do not "kill the play" right then and there. We wait until the play is over before we enforce or not enforce depending upon the results, hence the term 'delayed dead"

Pete Booth

[noumpere]

In reality the ball is either Live or Dead, the term "delayed dead" is a term for umpires so that we KNOW when to enforce.

Pete, I'm sure he knows that.

I think he asking, since some umpires get excoriated if they use the term "dead ball" instead of "time", shouldn't that standard also be applied to the term "delayed dead ball."

The answer, of course, is no.