A or B Obstruction?

[Umpete]

13-15 Fall Ball playing under OBR. With R2, ball gets away from F1 on the throw back from F2 and rolls about half way between the mound and 2B. F4 and F6 go for the ball as R2 moves towards 3B and is obstructed by F6. R2 stops and returns to 2B with no attempt by the defense to tag him. I, as BU ruled this as type B obstruction and left the runner at second because no play was being made on him. Would you have ruled differently?

Pete

[BrianC14]

13-15 Fall Ball playing under OBR. With R2, ball gets away from F1 on the throw back from F2 and rolls about half way between the mound and 2B. F4 and F6 go for the ball as R2 moves towards 3B and is obstructed by F6. R2 stops and returns to 2B with no attempt by the defense to tag him. I, as BU ruled this as type B obstruction and left the runner at second because no play was being made on him. Would you have ruled differently?

Pete

R2 was attempting to advance to 3B when F6 obstructs.

Yes, I would have this as Type B; he should be awarded 3B on this. Doesn't matter that they didn't make a play on him.

[noumpere]

I, as BU ruled this as type B obstruction and left the runner at second because no play was being made on him. Would you have ruled differently?

I agree it's type B. So, put him where you think he would have ended up had there been no obstruction. That may be back at second (as you did), but the reason you give for it appears to be incorrect.

[BrianC14]

I agree it's type B. So, put him where you think he would have ended up had there been no obstruction. That may be back at second (as you did), but the reason you give for it appears to be incorrect.

Yes - good point there; in a type B, it's up to the base umpire to judge whether or not the runner would have (could have) obtained 3B in all this. Good call, noumpere. :clap:

[mstaylor]

It is tyoe B because there was no play. Where he winds up is your call.

[Umpete]

Absent the obstruction, no way R2 makes it to 3B on this one! (IMHO)

This was part of my thought process, but I failed to mention it in the OP. Probably because it was so obvious to me at the time. I remember thinking when R2 took off from second, "What the heck is he doing? He's going to be out by a mile."

But there is this part about the runner giving up his attempt to advance that troubles me because of a ML play I remember seeing a few years ago. Miguel Tejada (then with the Orioles) attempting to score on a base hit is obstructed by F5 rounding third. About 2/3 the way to home, he gives up and begins pointing towards F5 asking for the call, jogging into an easy tag by F2. He was ruled out, even though obstruction was called.

[Dragon29]

I don't know about the Tejada play, but from your description I'm wondering how Brian & the other guys would have placed him at 3B. Not saying they're wrong - just wondering.

For my money, if he's obstructed on his initial move (I call "That's Obstruction!") and R2 returns to 2B w/no play being made on him, I'm leaving him at 2B. The only way I award him 3B is if he continues the attempt and is tagged out.

Guys - is there something I'm missing here? I know the final base award is a judgment call, but can you really give him 3B if he made no actual attempt to get there? Isn't the 'automatic advance' Fed only? (I don't do Fed ball, so bear w/me here)

[MCLEOD36]

In FED, automatic. Like if he is going back to first on a pick off and gets obstructed, he gets 2nd base. In the Tejada play, I believe it was granted 3rd and got greedy...thus OUT. If obstruction A or B, and he is rounding 2nd, easy call, and give him 3rd, ie nipped in bud....for other innings...for spectators (SS looking at throw and standing in baseline)

[BrianC14]

I don't know about the Tejada play, but from your description I'm wondering how Brian & the other guys would have placed him at 3B. Not saying they're wrong - just wondering.

For my money, if he's obstructed on his initial move (I call "That's Obstruction!") and R2 returns to 2B w/no play being made on him, I'm leaving him at 2B. The only way I award him 3B is if he continues the attempt and is tagged out.

Guys - is there something I'm missing here? I know the final base award is a judgment call, but can you really give him 3B if he made no actual attempt to get there? Isn't the 'automatic advance' Fed only? (I don't do Fed ball, so bear w/me here)

Well, it's a HTBT of course, but if F6 is impeding him, I'm going to feel safe in assuming that he's making his way to third.

Mr. McLeod has it correct re: the FED rule, and that's mostly what I work, so there's my (de)fault.

Hey John - watch out though - I just learned of an opportunity to head your way in February for some winter/spring college games. :D

[mstaylor]

The Tejada play predated his days with Orioles. I forget who he was with but it was a play-off and there were two obstructions in the game. The first was a type A, the ball was killed and the base awarded. On the second it was Tejada. He was obstructed just before third, it was announced and he sloed to a jog about halfway home thinking he was getting home. If he had continued to home the play would have been close and he would have gooten the plate. As it was he was called out and the play stood. The U3 was the rules guy at one of the schhols and he explaied both calls and got both 100% correct.

[AZ ump]

The Tejada play occured in the ALCS between Boston and the A's. What made the play/call more confusing was that Type A had been called earlier in the game. A's fans were livid that a Boston player was awarded home on obstruction when he was going back to 3rd base, but Tejada got called out on an obstruction play where he should have easily scored (with or without the obstruction). The obstruction didn't really slow him down, what slowed him down was the fact that he started walking home, mistakenly thinking he was automatically awarded it.

[mstaylor]

I couldn't remember the teams but I knew it was a play-off game. Both obstruction calls were correctly called and enforced. The only problem being Tejada was being the idiot that he is. The U3 as I remember was the rules expert for Harry's school.

[Ros@]

Question doesn't the rule states he get's a base upon the one he legally had already?

So he already had the 2nd base. Shouldn't he been awarded the 3rd base? I believe this would be the same as on a R2 going to 3rd and then after being obstructed returns to 2nd because he couldn't have reached 3rd after being obstructed.

Please help me out on this as we alays have a huge dispute on this kind of calls.

[mstaylor]

Type A is always a base, type B is whatever nullifies the obstruction. Remember it this way, Type A requires a play to be a play on the runner when the obstruction occurs, a rundown or throw to the base the runner is going to are both examples. You kill the ball imediately and award at least a base, more if needed. Type B is typically a play like the BR being obstructed going around first while the ball is in the outfield. There you announce the obstruction, let the play continue and then award whatever nullifies the obstruction which can be no award to multible bases. If you think he only gets to second absent the obstruction and he does make second safely then there is no award.

[Ros@]

Type A is always a base, type B is whatever nullifies the obstruction. Remember it this way, Type A requires a play to be a play on the runner when the obstruction occurs, a rundown or throw to the base the runner is going to are both examples. You kill the ball imediately and award at least a base, more if needed. Type B is typically a play like the BR being obstructed going around first while the ball is in the outfield. There you announce the obstruction, let the play continue and then award whatever nullifies the obstruction which can be no award to multible bases. If you think he only gets to second absent the obstruction and he does make second safely then there is no award.

I believe, from this point whatever happens, you award 1 base upon the one he legally had. So for example in your example,

1) if the runner was obstructed BEFORE reaching 1st, he will get 1st base and may advance upon his own risk to the other bases. If he is tagged out at 3rd, the out stands!

2) if the runner was obstructed AFTER reaching 1st, he will get 2nd base and may advance at his on risk to the other bases. A tagg at a 3rd or home will stay out.

Now my question:

BR obstructed after reaching 1st base AND there is an overtrown from F5 to F3 which falls in the doug-out. where do you place the BR?

Edited October 13, 2010 by Umpire in Chief

[Rich Ives]

Type A is always a base, type B is whatever nullifies the obstruction. Remember it this way, Type A requires a play to be a play on the runner when the obstruction occurs, a rundown or throw to the base the runner is going to are both examples. You kill the ball imediately and award at least a base, more if needed. Type B is typically a play like the BR being obstructed going around first while the ball is in the outfield. There you announce the obstruction, let the play continue and then award whatever nullifies the obstruction which can be no award to multible bases. If you think he only gets to second absent the obstruction and he does make second safely then there is no award.

I believe, from this point whatever happens, you award 1 base upon the one he legally had. So for example in your example,

1) if the runner was obstructed BEFORE reaching 1st, he will get 1st base and may advance upon his own risk to the other bases. If he is tagged out at 3rd, the out stands!

2) if the runner was obstructed AFTER reaching 1st, he will get 2nd base and may advance at his on risk to the other bases. A tagg at a 3rd or home will stay out.

Now my question:

BR obstructed after reaching 1st base AND there is an overtrown from F5 to F3 which falls in the doug-out. where do you place the BR?

Don't confuse rule sets.

There is no type a/b in FED but there is an automatic minimum one base award.

There is a type a/b in OBR/NCAA (NCAA just changed for 2011) but if it's type b there is NO automatic award.

So, in OBR:

A runner who has rounded first and obstructed when there is no play being made on him is type b. Award if any as the umpire sees fit.

A runner who is obstructed before reaching first is always type a and the automatic award is first - unless it's on s fly ball that's caught in which case the obstruction is ignored.

A runner who is obstructed while a play is being made on him is an immediate dead ball and the runner gets at least the next base.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Rich Ives

[PeteBooth]

I don't know about the Tejada play, but from your description I'm wondering how Brian & the other guys would have placed him at 3B. Not saying they're wrong - just wondering.

From the OP

R2 moves towards 3B and is obstructed by F6. R2 stops and returns to 2B

Perhaps the reason R2 stopped and returned to second base was because of the OBS. We do not know

We DO know that the defense committed an infraction of the rules and IMO should be penalized.

When we rule interference we do not "wait and see" we simply enforce the penalty.

I know what the rule says "award bases IF ANY" BUT in enforcing we should give FULL benefit to the runner.

How about future events? The defensive coach sees that the runner was NOT awarded third base. The "light bulb" just went off and in the future he might teach his fileders to purposely obstruct the runner because the umpire is ONLY going to protect the runner back to his original base.

FWIW that's why I prefer the FED ruling. When you commit an infraction of the rules you should get penalized otherwise why bother calling it in the first place.

In the OP I would award the obstructed runner 3rd base.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

Absent the obstruction, no way R2 makes it to 3B on this one! (IMHO)

This was part of my thought process, but I failed to mention it in the OP. Probably because it was so obvious to me at the time. I remember thinking when R2 took off from second, "What the heck is he doing? He's going to be out by a mile."

Here is what you know

R2 moves towards 3B and is obstructed by F6.

The runner was advancing towards a base and was obstructed. I know what the rule says but IMO, that's for a different type scenario. The defense committed an infraction of the rules and should be penalized.

I will ask you this?

Suppose the defense threw back towards second base and tagged out R2. Would you have let the out call stand?

If a runner is TRULY advancing and is obstructed while advancing then award the next base otherwise IMO, you are giving the offender a "free ride".

Pete Booth

[Ros@]

I feel I need to get a copy of the FED/ OBR/ NCAA/ HS and whatever else you guys have in other to study each rule setting to be able to discuse in these forums.

Anyone has any electronic copy?

Thanks a lot!

:beerbang

[Rich Ives]

I feel I need to get a copy of the FED/ OBR/ NCAA/ HS and whatever else you guys have in other to study each rule setting to be able to discuse in these forums.

Anyone has any electronic copy?

Thanks a lot!

OBR is on line at MLB.com

NCAA is on line at NCAA.org

Both are PDF's

FED is HS: NFHS - you have to join and pay money to see them unless someone's willing to send you a copy.

[Ros@]

OBR is on line at MLB.com

NCAA is on line at NCAA.org

Both are PDF's

FED is HS: NFHS - you have to join and pay money to see them unless someone's willing to send you a copy.

OK, thanks a lot for the info Rich Ives

I will start by downloading these two first.

Regards,

[PeteBooth]

OK, thanks a lot for the info Rich Ives

I will start by downloading these two first.

Regards,

Rosa in addition to downloading the rule books I STRONGLY suggest that you buy additional OBR materials like Rick Roders Rules of professional baseball. On this site you often have posters like myself refer to these materials abbreviated JR. Here is the link for Rick's book

http://www.rulesofbaseball.com/

Another EXCELLENT source which explains the differences in the major rule codes (OBR / NCAA and FED) is Carl Childress's BRD (baseball Rule differences) You can get that at the following address:

http://baseball.officiating.com/

The reason for purchasing add'l materials especially OBR is because the OBR rule book is poorly written and poorly indexed.

Pete Booth

Edited October 13, 2010 by PeteBooth

[Umpire in Chief]

I'm wondering about BRD. I tried ordering it earlier and it wasn't listed on their site and I checked again now and it's still not there...

[PeteBooth]

I'm wondering about BRD. I tried ordering it earlier and it wasn't listed on their site and I checked again now and it's still not there...

Warren,

Carl is working on the 2011 version which is NOT yet on sale

Check out this link. Scroll down and you will see where Carl referes to the 2011 BRD.

http://baseball.officiating.com/

SUGGESTION: Warren is it possible to add links to this site so that a viewer can simply click on the link and order the materials?

IMO, tha MAJOR materials that you can get on line would be

1. The PBUC manual

2. Rick Roder's Rules of Professional Baseball

3. Carl Childress's BRD (Baseball Rule Differences)

4. MLBUM - Major league baseball Umpire manual

To my knowldege the ONLY major material that you cannot get on line is Jim Evans Annotaded (JEA)

Pete Booth

Edited October 13, 2010 by PeteBooth

[Umpete]

How about future events? The defensive coach sees that the runner was NOT awarded third base. The "light bulb" just went off and in the future he might teach his fileders to purposely obstruct the runner because the umpire is ONLY going to protect the runner back to his original base.

Pete Booth

How about the offensive coach who sees you award the base and then in the future instructs his runners to take off every time a fielder moves into the baseline near him when the ball is live?