Check Swings

[mstaylor]

Originally Posted by Dragon29

critter,

Don't get me wrong; when you're working 2-man (which is what I think you were trying to say) the PU is going to come to the only guy he's got out there - so LH, RH, 'A', 'B' or 'C' you make the call.

The situation I posted was a bit different.

matter what position there in. what i mean if i a plate ump and i ask for appeal and it on the wrong side of the batter. lol

I had a calripken minor game and coach ask me to appeal i know he did not go and my bu was over at second base he got the same view as me. I told him i was not going to ask.

i told the bu i would of ask if he was down first base line.

This was in a thread about three man mechanics so I thought I would start a new one about two man.

Critter:

This has been discussed many many times on multible boards but we will go through it again just so you are aware. In Pro rules in you are asked to check a checked swing then you must, there is no options. Now obviously you can't check a called swing because it already is a strike. There is nothing magical or ambivilant about the rule, check if asked on a ball call, don't if you called it a swing.

Now, in two man no matter where your partner is or what his experience level is, ask him. If he doesn't have a good look then tell him to safe it. If he thinks ot was a swing, then call it a strike. Obviously depending on the position of the umpire and the hand of the batter, his criteria will be different.

When working a game with an ump that has little experience or none, it is essential that you do a good pregame with him. This does not mean give him a twenty minute mechanics clinic, it means tell him his responsibilities and get started. In this pre-game explain areas of responsibility with respect to play coverage and also tell him that he has check swings. This may requiire a brief explanation of what constitutes a swing.

PIAA and I are both long and well respected umpire trainers at the HS and below level. Warren has a good amount of training himself so listen to what we are telling you, it has worked for many years and it will continue to work.

If you are taught not to check to the middle, it was probably by somebody at least sixty or above or has been taught by someone fitting that description. The reason I say this is because at one time that was a taught mechnic as well as stupid others that had a bunch of secret signals that I won't go into. Suffise it to say this is a VERY outdated mechanic that needs to given a proper burial.

[Umpire in Chief]

If you can put me to the rule i am wrong but i got the rule book right here it does say he must ask for help. or atleast point me to the right number

critter,

I cannot give you chapter & verse of the rule and it may not be a written rule of the rulebook as I did not find it in a quick search.

However, that is one of the things that separates baseball from other sports. Our rules are written in such a way that we have to rely on interpretations. Hence the success rates of books like the Jaska/ Rodder Manual, Wendelstedt Rules and Mechanics Manual, and others. There are multiple rules we accept through interpretation rather than print in OBR. Having the knowledge of these interpretations is a huge step in your career.

[Stan W.]

Critter, you are at the right rule number, you just have to read a bit further down in the comment section....Pro rules are often written badly and seem contradictory at times.....but here it is.....

see below..

Rule 9.02© Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

[BrianC14]

You're the plate umpire.

You've called the pitch a 'Ball' - and judged a half-swing/check swing with "No, he didn't go!"

Catcher asks you to get help from the base umpire.

Now: the question is, why wouldn't you ask your partner? I like it when the call is changed to a strike. :clap:

[carolinablue]

A little off the subject here but all this talk about check swings got me thinking about this. Did anyone happen to notice the umpire that did plate in th LLWS. I can't remember for sure but it was either the final championship game or the International championship game.

When he had a half swing he would point at the batter, look him dead in the eyes and emphatically shout " Yes YOU did. " I bet a couple of them kids may have wet themselves. He did a good job though, I just thought this was a little overboard.

[BrianC14]

One more word about check swings/ appeals...

This should be part of your pregame. The most that has to be stated, is:

"Be ready for a check swing. Regardless of where you are: A, B or C, I will come to you if they appeal. Give me what you've got."

That last part is important. There are still guys out there that take it way too personally, and will sometimes tell you, "Just agree with my call." That's 100% horseSH*#.

:clap:

[mstaylor]

One more word about check swings/ appeals...

This should be part of your pregame. The most that has to be stated, is:

"Be ready for a check swing. Regardless of where you are: A, B or C, I will come to you if they appeal. Give me what you've got."

That last part is important. There are still guys out there that take it way too personally, and will sometimes tell you, "Just agree with my call." That's 100% horseSH*#.

That the part that used secret signals. If I use your first name agree, if your last call it a strike. All of that stuff is crap. I tell my catchers, "If you you ask, I'll ask." Ask if they ask and the BU should give you what he has. If he thinks he doesn't have a look then safe it.

[critter]

Critter, you are at the right rule number, you just have to read a bit further down in the comment section....Pro rules are often written badly and seem contradictory at times.....but here it is.....

see below..

Rule 9.02© Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

i also seem to skip over that thanks. but i still believe that there no way he could of made a call he is a volunteer parent. Now if he was an official it might be different. Though i made the decision when i saw the batter. i knew he did not go around. so even if the umpire was at first i doubt i would of ask.

who knows cause i ask other umpires in the leauge who said they barley ask for help if there in b or c position. So i went by them.

[critter]

You're the plate umpire.

You've called the pitch a 'Ball' - and judged a half-swing/check swing with "No, he didn't go!"

Catcher asks you to get help from the base umpire.

Now: the question is, why wouldn't you ask your partner? I like it when the call is changed to a strike.

well one he not official, two i never seen an umpire been appeal in over at second base just close enough to infield. Three i already made the call myself. :clap:

[frenchblue]

well one he not official, two i never seen an umpire been appeal in over at second base just close enough to infield. Three i already made the call myself.

it doesnt matter weather or not he is "official". he is your partner and the other umpire on the field, meaning he has almost as much athority as you (UIC makes decsions on playing conditions, and some other game managment thing, etc., but other than that, THE SAME ATHORITY). Treat him as if he were Randy Marsh, or Gary Cederstrom, or any other MLB umpire because he has the same power as them in the game...THE SAME

Just because you have never seen an umpire appeal over in the "b" or "c" position doesn't mean anything. It is doesn't matter where he/she is on the field. APPEAL!!!! Like all the other posts have said, the worst that can happen is you get another STRIKE...All umpires in other parts of the country do it this way (other than I guess from your area,-in Baustan we appeal, and socal...).

Yes, you made the call yourself...what is your point? critter, if you blank out or something distracts you to the point where you cant see the swing, are you telling us you wouldn't go for help if you partner is in the "b" or "c" position? you may not have the best angle to determine whether or not the batter swung. APPEAL. Your not "official" partner may just have saw the batter made an attempt to swing...

and, Warren and Michael have some very good advice. it is best to listen to them, because they know what they are talking about.

(50th post...)

[Stan W.]

i also seem to skip over that thanks. but i still believe that there no way he could of made a call he is a volunteer parent. Now if he was an official it might be different. Though i made the decision when i saw the batter. i knew he did not go around. so even if the umpire was at first i doubt i would of ask.

who knows cause i ask other umpires in the leauge who said they barley ask for help if there in b or c position. So i went by them.

well, now that you know the correct ruling become a leader in your association......use the correct ruling and mechanics to up the professionalism in the umpire corps in your area....

you dont have to be a know it all, just use the proper ruling every time, and explain if asked ...before you know it others will follow....

[Dragon29]

One more word about check swings/ appeals...

This should be part of your pregame. The most that has to be stated, is:

"Be ready for a check swing. Regardless of where you are: A, B or C, I will come to you if they appeal. Give me what you've got."

That last part is important. There are still guys out there that take it way too personally, and will sometimes tell you, "Just agree with my call." That's 100% horseSH*#.

Yup - Several years ago (my rookie year being a trained umpire; had been volunteering for years before this) in a pre-game w/a veteran partner, I told him, "If I'm in 'B' or 'C' I won't ever over-rule you on a check-swing", thinking, of course, that I was showing him the proper respect.

His response? "Why the Hell not?"

He then went on to explain to me that I wouldn't be 'over-ruling' him by offering my opinion. I learned a lot from him over the next couple of seasons.

[Aging_Arbiter]

You never know exactly when or why you will be asked on appeal. Maybe the catcher had his glove to high and blocked your parnters view. Shoot, maybe the catcher stood up and blocked him. Be ready. If you feel that there was an attempt made at the ball, when asked, call it! It's not overuling, it's getting the call right.

[Thunderheads]

This is odd for me ....

I understand the discussion, appeal or not, but ....if I'm in "B" ....how can I make a determination if there was an offer at a pitch? Honestly?:angel4:

[Dragon29]

This is odd for me ....

I understand the discussion, appeal or not, but ....if I'm in "B" ....how can I make a determination if there was an offer at a pitch? Honestly?

By not laboring under the mythical impression that it has anything to do with where the bat head or the batters hands were. You simply make a judgment call on whether or not you believe the batter offered at the pitch.

[BrianC14]

By not laboring under the mythical impression that it has anything to do with where the bat head or the batters hands were. You simply make a judgment call on whether or not you believe the batter offered at the pitch.

FYI - NCAA rule set defines what a check swing is.... barrel part of the bat in front of the front edge of home plate, or in front of the front hip. They're the only rule set that provides that definition. Pro rules and NFHS call for the umpire to judge if the batter offered at the pitch.

Edited to add:

But seeing as how this is the Youth/Recreation Baseball category, your judgment is the only thing that you need to rely upon when you're asked to rule on a check swing. Don't sweat the NCAA definition of it. :angel4:

Edited November 17, 2009 by BrianC14
CYA

[Dragon29]

Brian - I'm aware of that, but considering the section this thread was in, I didn't feel it necessary to point that out.

[BrianC14]

Brian - I'm aware of that, but considering the section this thread was in, I didn't feel it necessary to point that out.

D'oh! Sorry. When I saw you'd responded, I clicked on the thread and saw the category.... oops.

See my edits...

:angel4:

Edited November 17, 2009 by BrianC14

[Dragon29]

Brian - np - Of course, I've never made a mistake of any kind before, but I understand how it can happen. :angel4:

[BrianC14]

Brian - np - Of course, I've never made a mistake of any kind before, but I understand how it can happen.

Hey, I've never made a misteak, either. :banghead:

[mstaylor]

The check swing from the middle has been discussed many times and the easiest answer I can give you is if you think he attempted to swing then ring the strike. If you aren't sure or you think he didn't then safe him. Don't overcomplicate it, just give him what you have.