Anything?

[blueman]

RHP in stretch position. He is slightly bent over at the waist leaning in getting the signal from the catcher. His gloved left hand is resting on his left thigh. The right hand holds the ball at his waist, against his belt, to the left of his belt buckle and almost directly above left leg.Anything wrong with this position? FED rules.

[UmpJM]

blueman,

Yes.

His pitching hand must be at his side or behind his back.

JM

[spiritump]

RHP in stretch position. He is slightly bent over at the waist leaning in getting the signal from the catcher. His gloved left hand is resting on his left thigh. The right hand holds the ball at his waist, against his belt, to the left of his belt buckle and almost directly above left leg.Anything wrong with this position? FED rules.

from what you discribe I see nothing wrong

[Rich Ives]

RHP in stretch position. He is slightly bent over at the waist leaning in getting the signal from the catcher. His gloved left hand is resting on his left thigh. The right hand holds the ball at his waist, against his belt, to the left of his belt buckle and almost directly above left leg.Anything wrong with this position? FED rules.

from what you discribe I see nothing wrong

ART. 3 . . . For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back.

[th3]

balk

[noumpere]

RHP in stretch position. He is slightly bent over at the waist leaning in getting the signal from the catcher. His gloved left hand is resting on his left thigh. The right hand holds the ball at his waist, against his belt, to the left of his belt buckle and almost directly above left leg.Anything wrong with this position? FED rules.

This position is illegal in pro, college and HS rules. It was specifically mentioned in the NCAA clinic a few years ago when the gorilla stance started to become popular.

[jkumpire]

I disagree. this is legal in Fed. Gorilla Arm was made legal in FED this year as long as the arm didn't swing.

6.1.3 CB:

6.1.3 SITUATION P:

With a runner on first, Team A right-handed pitcher is in the set position, bent at the waist and his pitching arm naturally hangs down slightly in front or to the side away from his body. As he looks to the catcher for a signal, a) the pitcher's arm is stationary or B) the pitching arm rocks slightly from side to side.

RULING: In a), the position of the arm is natural and can be considered by his side in meeting the rule. Any movement would then start the pitch. In B), any movement of the arm is considered the start of the pitching motion and a pitch must be delivered to the plate so this motion results in a balk.

From what is described this is more or less the same thing. Where is the deception making this a balk?

[UmpJM]

jk,

If the pitcher in the OP were doing a "gorilla arm", your cite would be pertinent and your assertion correct.

He is not, your cite is irrelevant, and your assertion is incorrect.

As described, the pitcher is illegal.

JM

[blueman]

Thanks for the replies.

Personally, I think this position is illegal because the pitcher is basically hiding the ball from the runner. That is the reason the rule states that the pitching hand should be to the pitchers side or behind the back. Even with the gorilla arm stance the pitching arm is out in plain sight. I would have to think that if this was a legal position you would see a pro pitcher somewhere with this mechanic, but I can't think of one pitcher who does it. They all have their pitching hand to their side or behind their back. Even though I mentioned FED rules I don't think there would be a difference between FED and OBR in this situation.

[yawetag]

I disagree. this is legal in Fed. Gorilla Arm was made legal in FED this year as long as the arm didn't swing.

It's been legal since at least 2010, and possibly 2009.

[mstaylor]

It says he holds it at his waist, I read that as in front of him. If that is correct then it is illegal. If it at his side then he is fine. Some years back our state interpreter had a kid doing that and he banged him. When the coach complained he asked why he does that. The answer was so the runner couldn't see the ball. :shrug:

[Rich Ives]

It says he holds it at his waist, I read that as in front of him. If that is correct then it is illegal. If it at his side then he is fine. Some years back our state interpreter had a kid doing that and he banged him. When the coach complained he asked why he does that. The answer was so the runner couldn't see the ball.

Not only did it say at the waist - it said to the left of the belt buckle.

Definitely in front.

[UmpJM]

From the 2010 FED interpretatios posted o the NFHS.org website:

SITUATION 3: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching arm resting on his thigh and his pitching hand is at rest in his lower abdominal area. RULING: This is illegal. Having his pitching hand at rest in this area gives the offense little to no visibility of the baseball and action by the pitcher. (6-1-3)

JM

[UmpJM]

(Inadvertent duplicate).

[dddunn3d]

From the 2010 FED interpretatios posted o the NFHS.org website:

SITUATION 3: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching arm resting on his thigh and his pitching hand is at rest in his lower abdominal area. RULING: This is illegal. Having his pitching hand at rest in this area gives the offense little to no visibility of the baseball and action by the pitcher. (6-1-3)

JM

Here's a question for all:

When should a balk of this nature be called? As soon as he takes an illegal posture? Or when he starts his coming to set motion?

Example-- F1 in the stretch with the ball as in the OP.

option1 -- From this position he comes set or attempts a pick-off.

option 2-- From this position he legally disengages.

option 3-- After a second or two in this position, he moves his pitching hand (holding the ball) to his side, finishes with the signs and then comes set.

Option 1 is straight forward; it's a balk. Options 2 and 3, not so much.

I expect some will say that just assuming this position constitutes the balk, while others may reason that it's the actual movement of his pitching hand that makes the balk. Still another angle is to only call the balk if option 1 is observed, with the other options not being a balk.

I'm about 50/50 on how I think this should be called.

And another thing... If F1 wants to hide the ball from the runners, he can hold it in his glove.

[UmpJM]

dddunn,

I'd just kill it and tell him to do it properly.

JM

[blueman]

From the 2010 FED interpretatios posted o the NFHS.org website:

SITUATION 3: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching arm resting on his thigh and his pitching hand is at rest in his lower abdominal area. RULING: This is illegal. Having his pitching hand at rest in this area gives the offense little to no visibility of the baseball and action by the pitcher. (6-1-3)

JM

Here's a question for all:

When should a balk of this nature be called? As soon as he takes an illegal posture? Or when he starts his coming to set motion?

Example-- F1 in the stretch with the ball as in the OP.

option1 -- From this position he comes set or attempts a pick-off.

option 2-- From this position he legally disengages.

option 3-- After a second or two in this position, he moves his pitching hand (holding the ball) to his side, finishes with the signs and then comes set.

Option 1 is straight forward; it's a balk. Options 2 and 3, not so much.

I expect some will say that just assuming this position constitutes the balk, while others may reason that it's the actual movement of his pitching hand that makes the balk. Still another angle is to only call the balk if option 1 is observed, with the other options not being a balk.

I'm about 50/50 on how I think this should be called.

And another thing... If F1 wants to hide the ball from the runners, he can hold it in his glove.

In my opinion, as soon as he puts his pitching hand (with or without the ball) at his waist and leans in to get a sign he has committed a balk. It does not matter if the ball is in his glove or in his hand he is still deceiving the runner by not indicating where the ball is located. In a legal position the runner can see the ball in his pitching hand at his side or behind his back. If the runner cannot see the ball in his hand he knows the ball is in his glove. To me, the purpose of the hand to the side/behind the back rule is to let the runner know where the ball is located.

[noumpere]

In my opinion, as soon as he puts his pitching hand (with or without the ball) at his waist and leans in to get a sign he has committed a balk.

Agreed but I might give the pitcher a fraction of a second or two -its probably not really that long -to see if he moves the ball to a legal position that is to see if he completes the act of looking in for the sign.