Is this the correct call

[Umpire in Chief]

Okay I was talking to my father in law, an umpire hater, he was telling me of this situation he saw on tv. I don't know when the game was. I haven't seen it myself. Apparently it was an Orioles game. R1, R2 the batter bunts which is fielded by the pitcher. The batter in attempting to avoid the tag stops along the first base line and apparently runs back a step or two back towards home.

The umpire calls the runner out without being tagged and returns the runners. Apparently the reason the TV announcer cited was that the batter was called out for a deceitful move in avoiding the tag? I can't find any reference to this.

I told my father in law the only thing I could think of is that the umpires ruled it an intentionally dropped ball.

Did anybody see this or know the ruling?

[Nate]

So did the pitcher catch the bunt and drop it? Then try to tag the runner? I don't understand the call at all.

[Ump Rube]

At least in FED (I have never worked OBR, my first copy should be on its way shortly so I can start to learn) the only time that running the bases backwards is not allowed is when it is considered to be a travesty to the game (or is it of the game, I dunno).

Absent any other oddities that are being left out, I just don't know. But I do love the announcer moving up by not only misapplying, and misnaming rules, but now just making them up "deceitful move in avoiding the tag" thats a good one.

[Don]

The runner will be called out for retreating to home only if he reaches it. I see no reason to return R1 and R2, unless it was a bunt in the air that was intentionally dropped and then I don't know why F1 would chase the batter toward home.

[Mr Umpire]

The runner will be called out for retreating to home only if he reaches it. I see no reason to return R1 and R2, unless it was a bunt in the air that was intentionally dropped and then I don't know why F1 would chase the batter toward home.

This would be my take on the play. Intentional drop. But I guess we will have to see it to get an accurate call.

[ShmuelGoldstein]

Wow. Another example of where I should be careful.

I did not find this anywhere in OBR. Maybe I missed it.

BUT it is written in black and white in the ISF sb rules, FWIW. I trained in sb, and so this seems to be another example of a nuance that sb has, and bb does not have.

R1 and R2 should *not* have been returned. The ball should have remained live in any event.

But it doesn't make sense to not call the BR out, even in bb. I can't find a rule that let's us do it gracefully - it's just common sense.

[BrianC14]

.....

Apparently the reason the TV announcer cited was that the batter was called out for a deceitful move in avoiding the tag?

There's the problem. :smachhead:

[jjb]

OK, Full disclosure: I didn't see the play, I have no idea whether or not it was an intentionally dropped ball (and the OP doesn't mention it), and really don't know why he called him out. So, for the time being, let's ignore the ID ball.

But how about this: A runner is allowed to run between, say, second and third, because he's allowed to run to either base. Now, this B/R is allowed to run to 1st, but not allowed to run (back) home. So, (and how's this for a stretch?), perhaps, maybe, we're talking about a baseline violation to avoid a tag? Running to 1st and stopping makes his basepath one-way?

[Umpire in Chief]

I was told by my partner Sunday, who is a trusted source with more experience and knowledge than I, that this is an out for running backwards on the first base line. We both looked for it in the rule book at the cars but found nothing, but he believes it my either be in MLBUM or a rules interpretation manual.

[Mr Umpire]

OK, Full disclosure: I didn't see the play, I have no idea whether or not it was an intentionally dropped ball (and the OP doesn't mention it), and really don't know why he called him out. So, for the time being, let's ignore the ID ball.

But how about this: A runner is allowed to run between, say, second and third, because he's allowed to run to either base. Now, this B/R is allowed to run to 1st, but not allowed to run (back) home. So, (and how's this for a stretch?), perhaps, maybe, we're talking about a baseline violation to avoid a tag? Running to 1st and stopping makes his basepath one-way?

I too have not seen the play. But, the batter is allowed to back up towards HP. He is not out until he reaches HP. So, if he goes 3/4 of the way and F3 has the ball waiting on him so he can tag him for whatever reason, the batter can back up to avoid the tag as long as he doesn't reach HP. PBUC and MLBUM both cover this. NCAA and Fed may be different but OBR is ok.

Now, the violation could be for out of the path to avoid a tag or some other reason. But, it should not have been for backing up toward HP.

[Umpire in Chief]

I asked specifically did he go more than 3 ft from the baseline to avoid the tag, and apparently he didn't I was told he stopped for a moment then started to run directly back to HP and was never tagged.

[Umpire in Chief]

The runner will be called out for retreating to home only if he reaches it. I see no reason to return R1 and R2, unless it was a bunt in the air that was intentionally dropped and then I don't know why F1 would chase the batter toward home.

Welcome Don! Even if your avatar is for the wrong school Come football season, I'll be changing mine to something ECU...

[mstaylor]

In baseball it isn't an out until the BR reaches home.

[Mr Umpire]

If he turned around and ran towards the plate, that may be handled differently and viewed as running the bases backwards. But, if he was backing up, then that is ok I believe. I'll have to look at PBUC and MLBUM for the exact wording.

[Umpete]

The only reason I can think of for the series of events described in the OP is that the batter bunted a two-strike pitch foul. Possibly struck the batter while still in the box, or the fielder picked the bunt up in foul ground. The batter would be out, no tag necessary, and runners return. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...errr...microphone!

[noumpere]

If he turned around and ran towards the plate, that may be handled differently and viewed as running the bases backwards.

That's only illegal if it's making a travesty of the game.

In all codes, the runner is allowed to return until he reaches / touches the plate.

Either the person originally telling the story is missing something, or the umpires were wrong.

[UmpJM]

From the MLBUM:

NOTE: In situations where the batter-runner gets in a rundown between first and home, if the batter-runner retreats and reaches home plate, he shall be declared out.

JM

[Mr Umpire]

That's only illegal if it's making a travesty of the game.

In all codes, the runner is allowed to return until he reaches / touches the plate.

Either the person originally telling the story is missing something, or the umpires were wrong.

This was exactly what I was thinking of. If the umpires thought of it as a travesty, umpires were wrong, or part of the story is missing.

From the MLBUM:

NOTE: In situations where the batter-runner gets in a rundown between first and home, if the batter-runner retreats and reaches home plate, he shall be declared out.

JM

Since I didn't have the MLBUM, I wasn't sure if the BR was allowed to turn around and run back toward HP. But, I will have to think something is missing from the story or something else happened to cause this unexplainable call.