Cato the Younger

Is this college games? Back in the day, I remember being on diamonds when it actually was snowing while working a college game now the trainers are likely to pull the plug on it if it's that cold. Although I did work a game last year where the temperature gauge in my car read 28° when I exited the vehicle to change with about 17 mile-per-hour winds. Hard-core coach and a trainer that works for a sports medicine organization not the school so game on. Everybody was uncomfortable.

Very interesting good to see many choices in chest protectors. I remember when the +pos and Carlucci were what all the "cool kids" had and there were not really any other top end choices.

First I love the handle reference. Second I have enjoyed reading many of your posts. Thanks for pointing that out. It is interesting AL pointed this out too. By looking at this in this context the check swing appeal is clearly allowed and I would also apply this to Fed rules as well....... which is the code the actual game leading to the OP was played under. We need to give this situation a fancy name. Something cool sounding like...... a displacing third out appeal.

I now understand the OBR Official Interpretation 79-77 WENDELSTEDT giving some rule support in pro baseball. This is an interesting way to look at the situation because clearly the tag-out at second is occurring before the appeal. I think our original thought process was when I discussed this play with my buddy who was the appealing coach and a extraordinarily talented umpire was ........Does the tag end the inning and any appeal asking for a fourth out ........ (and that's what it is "a fourth out") would not be allowed. It's your position that it would because the third out is not the tag at second if properly appealed but the batter striking out. Interesting. If you're not going to call it a "fourth out appeal" what would you call it?

I'd like to revisit this as well. I think it's important to define when a fourth out can occur. I don't hundred percent agree with the post above because a runner leaving early also can clearly lead to a fourth out appeal. Until my buddy brought up display I never even thought about the possibilities of fourth out appeal on a check swing situation like this. That's why find the play so fascinating. I will admit I don't mind the mechanics derail because I think there's a lot of value to having awareness of the check swing possibility as the base umpire. But what makes the play interesting to me is the application of the fourth out appeal. Clearly we have pro baseball interpretation support which would also potentially flow to NCAA without an official ruling. I'm wondering if there's any rule support in Federation?

I'm not saying it's difficult. Clausewitz’s dictum applies here (paraphrased)......... in war as umpiring everything is simple, nothing is easy. You guys are fooling yourself if you think this is a rare situation that the base umpire loses focus because his attention turns to the play at second base and the appeal is asked for after the play occurs. I think that's the advantage of a thread like this is that it brings awareness to the play which will help umpires focus. But this is going to happen numerous times by numerous umpires in this up-and-coming season.

Soon to for sale on Amazon and rule interps will follow. Always something interesting. I think there is a potential for umpires to use these as well: To see if a runner a second is breaking. Of course, the to subtly pick out if the guy whose bench jockeying your strike zone from the dugout.

Who is the rest of us? Lol Is this board the Borg from Star Trek? Your posting makes me think you are pretty young. That's a good thing. But as good as it is being young is it does have some disadvantages. I like your Tagline "Almost as good as I think I am" ..........Well, mine is ..... "I wish I was as good as I thought I was when I was younger." I'm a way better umpire now then when I suffered from "young man's disease" even though I'm a little bit slower and can't work nine full seven-inning baseball games like I did regularly on weekends Friday night to Sunday when I was in my 20's. But back in the day, I thought I missed very little on the field. Now I'm smart enough to know what I don't always see and, more importantly, why. You are fooling yourself if you think you are that dialed into everything happening on a baseball diamond. Your post that indicates the check swing happens "well before well before the play at second base" is a perfect example of this. The actual tag may happen after, but the umpire has to start processing his primary responsibility a potential play at second as the catchers receiving the pitch. Can it be done? Yes. But is this one situation that many umpires loose focus on because their attention is diverted to the play at second base???? Absolutely.

In a two-umpire system many umpires are focused on reading the catchers body language to prepare to "open their gate" and take care of the primary responsibility........ the steal...........( including me ) ....... at the expense of watching the batter. The catcher is already starting to throw before the batters motions have even completed in many these situations. So no....... "well before well before the play at second base" ...... does not fit the multiple factors the base umpire must keep track of. If you stay to focused on the check swing, a close steal play will explode on you, and you will be guessing regardless of how good you are.

In a perfect world you are correct, but to be honest with you I have gotten so focused on a steal I really didn't have much to offer the plate umpire when he came to me several times in my career. This is most common when after the dust settles at second and they convinced the plate umpire to come down after a delay. I don't consider this as much of a rookie mistake is much as remaining focused on multiple things happening. Even the best of us go to sleep from time to time on the bases. The steal attempt is not irrelevant. It is the primary responsibility of the base umpire. The check swing is not. What if the plate umpire never comes to you? You can get away with saying that you were focused on the steal and did not get a good look at the check swing situation and retain credibility, But if you say I was so focused on the check swing I really didn't get a look at the tag play at second your credibility for the rest of that game is pretty much shot.

Here is a little more information on how the play went down. This kid is not supposed to have struck out in an ungodly number of times at bat. As soon as he checked the swing and the umpire called "ball" the whole dugout was asking the plate umpire go for help because they wanted the pitcher to get the K. The runner got thrown out at second base and the coach who as I indicated is an umpire yelled at the battery, and the infield to stay put as they were all starting to trot off the field. He came on the field approach the plate umpire and asked if he could appeal the check swing and if he did would the batter be called out? As a coach, this guy is a complete class act the type of guy who you like to work for. Tends to get umpires to work hard for him and bring their "A" game but he's always very professional. He actually has all his kids come out and shake the umpires hands before the game. Some of my colleagues don't like this, but I think it's a very classy gesture. The coach didn't know what the proper interpretation was either, but he thought it might be worth asking to get the Tourney "Ted Williams" not coming back to the plate the next inning. The umpire who was not familiar with the coach was a little befuddled by the request. Also, as was alluded to earlier in the thread, the base umpire feigned ignorance that he really didn't get a good look at the swing as he was getting in position to rule at second base. So the check swing and call of ball actually stood on the field. I was more interested in the appeal component rather then the actual ruling on the field. Usually, any type of "4th out appeal" is usually on a missed base or failure to take up on a fly ball with a runner scoring. This was very interesting to me as it applied to a batting order situation and did not affect a run-scoring. I thought everyone might find it to be a very interesting play.

This was a very witty and amusing post. "Hey ump I know the guy was out at second but could you ask your partner for help if our guy actually swung because he's our worst hitter in the nine slot and I'd like to start the inning with our resident Tony Gwynn Who is our leadoff hitter."

First I am confident this may not happen again. An umpire I work with who coaches his kids very good select team asked me about this play that happened last October in an "elite" tourney. I typically avoid what I call "don't worry about it..... because if it happened....... it probably won't happen again" plays but I found this one very interesting. I am not going to post in the OP what the umpires on the field ruled because I am interested in your thoughts. Two outs and two strikes on the batter, the runner on first base is thrown out attempting to steal second base. The coach (who also umpires) is aware that the opponent's best hitter is batting appeals the checked swing to the base umpire, trying to get the batter is declared out on strikes. Thus, the batter becomes the third out for both scoring purposes and establishing the next batter for the next inning. Thoughts in FED, NCAA and Pro baseball rules? Would this be a legit 4th out appeal? Note: I am confident this coach knew how to have his team properly appeal. So assume it was appealed properly under each code.

I agree with what you're saying. But here's where the rubber meets the road........ Game one kid heads out to the mound with the camo sleeve no one says boo game goes without incident. Game two (A few weeks later) same kid heads out to the mound with the camel sleeve, and now the assistant coach from the other team is asking if it's legal. Not necessarily because it's distracting but because he thinks he can get in the kids head if he can get me to remove it. Some of these camel sleeves also have small traces of gray which is awfully close to white. I have never found them in any way distracting other than noticing them, but it does create a legitimate opportunity for an opposing team to complain. I still think it would be nice to have specific guidance and then enforcement becomes more consistent with less whining about how no one has disallowed it all year. We've all heard that before but, in this case, it might be true.

I'm just happy when they repeat questions. Particularly common is when they use a question in year one on part one and then the same question appears on part two the following year. We are open book in my area so it makes it pretty easy to get a number of questions correct. I just look at the test like my registration fee ...... something that I need to you get done. Kinda like renewing your drivers license. I certainly don't consider paying my dues as an educational opportunity nor do I feel the test is one as well. Just another administrative thing that needs to be done.

If you want to be the balk evangelist enforcing this one knock yourself out. It's pretty obvious by your posting that you want to balk this and think everybody else should be too. But without a significant point of emphasis, change in the culture of the game, or a number of people that I work with starting to call it differently I'm certainly going to pass on this one. I've seen this move a significant amount of times over the last several years and have passed on balking it every single time. Noting to myself that he's not gaining ground. No one including some highly intelligent pitching coaches ( Some with professional even major-league experience) that like to banter on about a lot of little technical things have never mentioned that this should be a balk on their opponents. There are many balks I pass on every season. Again it's a philosophy but a valid one that if you have to conduct a pitching clinic on the field for anyone to understand what you're calling a balk this might be one to pass on.

I think it's long overdue that we've gotten some guidance on the sleeves. It's been the "Wild West" for a couple of years. I've allowed the camo sleeve on a couple of pitchers last year indicating that it wasn't white or gray. There's a lot of different rules you could cobble together to allow or prohibit these in a game but specific guidance for pitchers is very welcome to me.

Is that the one produced by referee magazine?

I personally like this type of mechanic being optional and not being mandated. Let's say on Monday I'm working with a young up-and-coming 23 year old and he's working the plate and runs like a gazelle. That guy should probably be rotating up to third. Meanwhile if I'm working with a veteran on Tues. who is past the medicare qualified age that's nursing a bad knee it's probably better to leave him home. One you don't beat him up so much. Two you have somebody in position for a potential play at the plate if something breaks down at third. I've seen situations where the plate umpire heads the third and anticipates that the base umpire will cover the plated home. Close play at the plate and two umpires are looking at one another until one decides to dial long distance and make the call. Almost as bad is when the old guy you made run down to third is beat and looking up the rear of a play at the plate and looks immobile when he actually was hustling down the third. It's a lot to ask a 66-year-old veteran to beat a 17-year-old kid in a 90 foot race. Coaches and fans will do it. But why set the veteran up for failure when the base umpire can get a pretty good look from the sweet spot behind the mound.

I definitely agree that you have rule support to call the balk because he's not gaining ground as I've previously posted. But there's very little difference between this and a jump turn. If I'm picturing it as I believe you're describing it ...... after he makes the move is non-pivot foot is effectively behind his pivot foot so he would be effectively in the same place if he did a jump turn. I will not say an umpire that's calling this balk is wrong. Again you have rule support, but I still think this is one to keep the flag in your pocket and wait for the real balks like not stopping in the set position, faking to first, or picking a runner off from the wind-up position etc. Does anybody remember throwing a flag on a balk? I do.

Much to comment on this post. What makes you different from a large percentage of ballplayers who like to make balk calls before the umpire? I've seen a lot of players to this, and many of them are actually balks. There are a lot of technical balks a literal enforcement of the rule could be called but shouldn't. A general rule of thumb black or white umpiring is not good umpiring. You indicate that umpires are not supposed to interpret rules yes they are good, and great umpires do that all the time. Your definition of a balk includes intentional deception. There's a lot of intentional deception that is perfectly legal. I think a better definition is illegally deceiving runners. Changing the amount of time you stop in the set position. Faking to third in Wheeling to first, head turns to runners at second base are all examples of intentional legal deception.

Now I've seen base umpires asleep (checking out the hot mom in the stands) oblivious that their partner is coming down to them. That also certainly has happened to me. ( I happen to like Burnett's.) But confused strike calls ............when the umpire says ball..... dugouts yelling asked for help....... plate umpire points to his partner .......and now they think it's a strike call??????? Okey-Doke he.

For the record, I have heard this parroted through the years by many umpires but have never observed one situation where an umpire pointing to first base on a check swing confused anybody that he was actually calling a strike. If it does happen that umpire may strongly consider changing their strike signal instead of worrying about pointing with the other hand. Same thing with pointing to first on ball four. I think it is unnecessary for other reasons. Has anyone ever gotten confused on a walk and ran to second base, so the umpire needs to point to first base? But becuase it looks like he's calling a strike?

A Tactical Pen is made of heavy duty, lightweight aircraft aluminum.It eliminates the foul ball problem. I am confident it would take a foul ball with no issues. As much as I like mine the pencil still makes for a neater line-up card with it's eraser if I make a mistake or do some shorthand for a quick pinch hitter. When it's wet the no smear ink many of these have works pens pretty good unless the card is soaked.

Pencil in good weather as i can clean up mistakes between innings/ I use a tactical pen in less then optimal conditions.