Catcher Constantly Shows You Up

[moblue]

I know I've heard people talk about how catchers that attempt to show you up must be stopped, as they undermine your credibility on the field. What about a situation like this:

I was doing a 9/10 yr. old game this week and had a catcher that didn't like my strike zone. Now he wasn't happy and would mention something to his pitcher every once in a while, but nothing I felt like needed to be immediately addressed. Let's face it, sometimes catchers will vent frustration talking to the pitcher, or trying to reassure them. It was all good and well until the choir started in from behind the backstop. and then the coaches started to complain in the form of asking their catcher where the pitch was. By this time he's acting about like an angry bull that's been prodded one to many times. I finally stood beside him and said "You've got the pitcher, I've got the game."

I went to one of the coaches between innings and told him he needed to talk to his catcher. I let him know it wasn't anything I couldn't handle, but he needed to calm down. The coach's response: "That kid's outta control. The best thing that could happen to him would probably be to get thrown out." My jaw about hit the ground. I had been given the green light to toss a 9 or 10 year old catcher. I told him I wasn't going to do that, because that would really cause problems, plus I would never be allowed to umpire in his town again (they were visitors at this game). He laughed because he knew I was right. He seems to be a good guy, but I wouldn't expect a coach to step up and take the heat for me saying he told me to throw the kid out. Luckily the game ended on time or 10RR and I didn't have to put up with the catcher again.

What I'd like to know is, what in the world are you supposed to do if a coach gives you the go-ahead to toss a kid at that age level? I have never tossed a player, and I absolutely refuse to unless there is an extremely good reason.

[blue32]

At that age level, I would probably quietly, and discreetly, go to the HC as his catcher is coming off the field between innings, and tell the coach to bench him, as a "quasi" ejection, without making a fuss and getting the mommies and daddies involved. If he gives you pushback, tell him it's either him or the kid. That should send the message to the coach to police his own players, which so many are afraid to do these days.

I've ejected several players not behaving properly in this manner, and noone is the wiser. Parents just figured coach removed him. I always try to do player ejections as quietly as the situation allows in small guy ball, and sometimes in HS.

[BrianC14]

I know I've heard people talk about how catchers that attempt to show you up must be stopped, as they undermine your credibility on the field. What about a situation like this:

I was doing a 9/10 yr. old game this week and had a catcher that didn't like my strike zone. Now he wasn't happy and would mention something to his pitcher every once in a while, but nothing I felt like needed to be immediately addressed. Let's face it, sometimes catchers will vent frustration talking to the pitcher, or trying to reassure them. It was all good and well until the choir started in from behind the backstop. and then the coaches started to complain in the form of asking their catcher where the pitch was. By this time he's acting about like an angry bull that's been prodded one to many times. I finally stood beside him and said "You've got the pitcher, I've got the game."

I went to one of the coaches between innings and told him he needed to talk to his catcher. I let him know it wasn't anything I couldn't handle, but he needed to calm down. The coach's response: "That kid's outta control. The best thing that could happen to him would probably be to get thrown out." My jaw about hit the ground. I had been given the green light to toss a 9 or 10 year old catcher. I told him I wasn't going to do that, because that would really cause problems, plus I would never be allowed to umpire in his town again (they were visitors at this game). He laughed because he knew I was right. He seems to be a good guy, but I wouldn't expect a coach to step up and take the heat for me saying he told me to throw the kid out. Luckily the game ended on time or 10RR and I didn't have to put up with the catcher again.

What I'd like to know is, what in the world are you supposed to do if a coach gives you the go-ahead to toss a kid at that age level? I have never tossed a player, and I absolutely refuse to unless there is an extremely good reason.

Is this for real?

First off, if a catcher at any level starts jawing about the strike zone, ask him (quietly) if he knows what a thimble is - because that's what the size of the strike zone is going to be unless he shuts his cake hole.

And if he continues, what you're supposed to do is JERK THAT LITTLE SH*TBAG RIGHT OUT OF THE GAME!

9-10 years old and you can't control him? Hell, halfway through your post, I kept thinking that I'd put that little sh*t over my knee right there at home plate, and give him the paddling of a lifetime. Of course, we know that can't be done, so EJECTING HIM is the next best thing. And I darned sure wouldn't be quiet or polite about it (what - are you afraid of hurting his feelings?)

Who the hell runs the games in your town, if not the umpires???? The KIDS?!? That's sure what it sounds like to me.

You need an "extremely good reason" before ejecting a player? B) I'd say he gave you more than just a few!

Next time you decide you're going to put up with that sort of nonsense from anyone on the field (player or coach) - consider the umpire that has to work the game with that team after you've had them. Think about that.

Edited May 20, 2009 by BrianC14

[dawg-man]

At any level, if I have trouble with the catcher my first response is to clean the plate and tell him I will umpire and he will just catch the ball. I always add a stern " do you understand me? " I have never had any trouble with them after that. Most kids will respect the authority if you show them that you will not be run over.

[BrianC14]

At any level, if I have trouble with the catcher my first response is to clean the plate and tell him I will umpire and he will just catch the ball. I always add a stern " do you understand me? " I have never had any trouble with them after that. Most kids will respect the authority if you show them that you will not be run over.

Amen to that. Nip it in the bud.

[Umpire in Chief]

I'd give him one chance to correct his ways then toss him. And at 9/10 y/o it's a miricle if they get it close enough for me to even think of calling a strike. At this level your strike zone is an all you can get.

[moblue]

Is this for real?

First off, if a catcher at any level starts jawing about the strike zone, ask him (quietly) if he knows what a thimble is - because that's what the size of the strike zone is going to be unless he shuts his cake hole.

And if he continues, what you're supposed to do is JERK THAT LITTLE SH*TBAG RIGHT OUT OF THE GAME!

9-10 years old and you can't control him? Hell, halfway through your post, I kept thinking that I'd put that little sh*t over my knee right there at home plate, and give him the paddling of a lifetime. Of course, we know that can't be done, so EJECTING HIM is the next best thing. And I darned sure wouldn't be quiet or polite about it (what - are you afraid of hurting his feelings?)

Who the hell runs the games in your town, if not the umpires???? The KIDS?!? That's sure what it sounds like to me.

You need an "extremely good reason" before ejecting a player? I'd say he gave you more than just a few!

Next time you decide you're going to put up with that sort of nonsense from anyone on the field (player or coach) - consider the umpire that has to work the game with that team after you've had them. Think about that.

Yes, this is for real. You must not have read my post about how games in our area work. See my post from yesterday: http://www.umpire-empire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6761

Trust me, I would love for nothing more than to have a zero-tolerance policy in place in this league, and backing for throwing out anyone that gives me a reason. Thing is, you don't get that here. Your ejections better have strong merit, and tossing kids is all but non-existant. Since playing, watching, and umpiring in my hometown and the three leagues they have been in, I have seen one player ejected, and I don't think that umpire has ever been invited back to town.

blue32, I appreciate the input. That's the kind of thing that would have worked best given the situation. I'll keep that in mind for next time.

[BrianC14]

Yes, this is for real. You must not have read my post about how games in our area work. See my post from yesterday: http://www.umpire-empire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6761

Trust me, I would love for nothing more than to have a zero-tolerance policy in place in this league, and backing for throwing out anyone that gives me a reason. Thing is, you don't get that here. Your ejections better have strong merit, and tossing kids is all but non-existant. Since playing, watching, and umpiring in my hometown and the three leagues they have been in, I have seen one player ejected, and I don't think that umpire has ever been invited back to town.

blue32, I appreciate the input. That's the kind of thing that would have worked best given the situation. I'll keep that in mind for next time.

If, in all those years having played, watched and umpired there, and you've seen ONE player ejected, then perhaps that's just the reason that 9/10 YO feels that it's acceptable to mouth off the way he does. The inmates are runing the asylum.

And as far as the 'zero tolerance' is concerned, that whole concept is, in my opinion, hogwash. It's put in place for people that cannot - or will not - use common sense and judgment - which, ironically, is what umpiring is all about.

Do those kids or teams ever put together travel teams? If so, they must be in for a rude awakening when they travel out of town.

I can tell you this (and please, believe me when I tell you- this is NOT a criticism of you) - if more umpires in your town would band together and start laying down the law on this stuff, I think you'd find that it would clear up real quick. If the league is not willing to back up the umpires on this sort of thing, then you might consider refusing to do some games, and then they (the alleged adults in this league) would find out for themselves why the umpries should be backed up. If I found that my association / league weren't backing me up on things like this, I would:

a) find another league in which to umpire; or, failing an available place to go, I'd:

take up gardening.

[noumpere]

plus I would never be allowed to umpire in his town again

If that's really your attitude, you should never work in "his town" or any other town again.

Edited May 21, 2009 by noumpere

[therefump]

I know I've heard people talk about how catchers that attempt to show you up must be stopped, as they undermine your credibility on the field. What about a situation like this:

I was doing a 9/10 yr. old game this week and had a catcher that didn't like my strike zone. Now he wasn't happy and would mention something to his pitcher every once in a while, but nothing I felt like needed to be immediately addressed. Let's face it, sometimes catchers will vent frustration talking to the pitcher, or trying to reassure them. It was all good and well until the choir started in from behind the backstop. and then the coaches started to complain in the form of asking their catcher where the pitch was. :fuel: By this time he's acting about like an angry bull that's been prodded one to many times. I finally stood beside him and said "You've got the pitcher, I've got the game."

I went to one of the coaches between innings and told him he needed to talk to his catcher. I let him know it wasn't anything I couldn't handle, but he needed to calm down. The coach's response: "That kid's outta control. The best thing that could happen to him would probably be to get thrown out." My jaw about hit the ground. I had been given the green light to toss a 9 or 10 year old catcher. I told him I wasn't going to do that, because that would really cause problems, plus I would never be allowed to umpire in his town again (they were visitors at this game). He laughed because he knew I was right. He seems to be a good guy, but I wouldn't expect a coach to step up and take the heat for me saying he told me to throw the kid out. Luckily the game ended on time or 10RR and I didn't have to put up with the catcher again.

What I'd like to know is, what in the world are you supposed to do if a coach gives you the go-ahead to toss a kid at that age level? I have never tossed a player, and I absolutely refuse to unless there is an extremely good reason.

I had a HS game this spring where I had a lazy catcher who didn't want to be at the game. It got to the point after getting hit by a second pitch that I went around to the front of the plate between pitches cleaned off the plate and quietly told him "if I get hit again, you're gone". He just looked at me. There were other incidents piling up as well. He kept throwing the pitchers rythym off by not getting set, etc. The next inning he was replaced. Same situation, the team was 10RR. After the game I told the coach what I had said and coach says to me "why didn't you toss him!". Sometimes we keep kids in the game that don't belong. :eek:

[BrianC14]

I had a HS game this spring where I had a lazy catcher who didn't want to be at the game. It got to the point after getting hit by a second pitch that I went around to the front of the plate between pitches cleaned off the plate and quietly told him "if I get hit again, you're gone". He just looked at me. There were other incidents piling up as well. He kept throwing the pitchers rythym off by not getting set, etc. The next inning he was replaced. Same situation, the team was 10RR. After the game I told the coach what I had said and coach says to me "why didn't you toss him!". Sometimes we keep kids in the game that don't belong.

Let me get this straight: you're going to eject a player because... he's lazy? Incompetent?

That would be an interesting ejection report to read.... :banghead:

[moblue]

I will say this; even though we (umpires in general) don't have many ejections around here, there is no report to write when we do. I guess that's the silver lining to being freelance.

[MCLEOD36]

I am all for ejecting a player for malice, but not ill content in the game. Have the coach deal with that issue. And the reports, I just look at that as not throwing your next umpire or partner under the bus. We do reports for Varsity games, they then get submitted and for a time voila never heard from again. But I then stressed in our Org meetings that we talk about them, to make sure no one gets thrown into a hornets nest. I am not talking about prejudging teams or coaches, just dont send me into a gun fight with a peashooter....

[RWPatten]

Now remember, this is from a rookie umpire. The first time a catcher "frames" a pitch and holds it, I give them this line:

"Son, throw the ball back to the pitcher and don't do it again".

It has worked so far. I don't know. It just popped into my head the first game I dealt with it.

[therefump]

Let me get this straight: you're going to eject a player because... he's lazy? Incompetent?

That would be an interesting ejection report to read....

Brianc14, I see you CAN read. Let me expound on the issue. First, I would go to the coach and say get him out from behind the plate. He's making a joke of the game. If the coach refuses I then say "coach, he's gonna be ejected for that exact reason". I never needlessly eject (unless it's CYO parents being knuckleheads.....I have 3 so far this year, all with good reason). I give alternatives and they get to pick if they want to leave.

Also, BrianC14, how many 80-85mph pitches would it take for you to be hit before you tire of the catcher? How many delays in the game would you take before you take action?

Edited May 21, 2009 by therefump

[BrianC14]

Brianc14, I see you CAN read. Let me expound on the issue. First, I would go to the coach and say get him out from behind the plate. He's making a joke of the game. If the coach refuses I then say "coach, he's gonna be ejected for that exact reason". I never needlessly eject (unless it's CYO parents being knuckleheads.....I have 3 so far this year, all with good reason). I give alternatives and they get to pick if they want to leave.

Also, BrianC14, how many 80-85mph pitches would it take for you to be hit before you tire of the catcher? How many delays in the game would you take before you take action?

Two, maybe three; maybe even four. Hell, I've been hit that many times behind GOOD catchers - nothing that was their fault.

But if I thought a catcher was being lazy, or was just inept, then I'd have the typical one-way conversation with him from behind my mask, maybe while I giving the plate an extra-special cleaning.

But would I eject a catcher for that? Hell, no. There's NOTHING in any rule set that gives you the perogative of ejecting that player.

But apparently you would. So you call your game, and I'll call mine, and let's leave it at that.

[therefump]

Two, maybe three; maybe even four. Hell, I've been hit that many times behind GOOD catchers - nothing that was their fault.

But if I thought a catcher was being lazy, or was just inept, then I'd have the typical one-way conversation with him from behind my mask, maybe while I giving the plate an extra-special cleaning.

But would I eject a catcher for that? Hell, no. There's NOTHING in any rule set that gives you the perogative of ejecting that player.

But apparently you would. So you call your game, and I'll call mine, and let's leave it at that.

Fair enough. One last question (I'm not trying to bait you.....just curious): I'm doing an American Legion first round playoff and it's a tight game but the pitcher has been carping at me for 2 innings for not giving him low/inside. Catcher calls timeout and talks to pitcher. Comes back and a inside belt high fastball comes in (90ish MPH) and the catcher pulls his mitt. I take it in the left shoulder........What would you do?:banghead:

[BrianC14]

Fair enough. One last question (I'm not trying to bait you.....just curious): I'm doing an American Legion first round playoff and it's a tight game but the pitcher has been carping at me for 2 innings for not giving him low/inside. Catcher calls timeout and talks to pitcher. Comes back and a inside belt high fastball comes in (90ish MPH) and the catcher pulls his mitt. I take it in the left shoulder........What would you do?

There's no comparison in what you've theorized here, and what you've already been discussing.

No comparison whatsoever.

Sorry, but you are baiting, and I ain't that type of fish. :shrug:

[BrianC14]

PS:

If I thought that F2 had worked an arrangement with F1 to intentionally throw at me, they'd both be gone in a NY minute.

So what's your point?

[therefump]

PS:

If I thought that F2 had worked an arrangement with F1 to intentionally throw at me, they'd both be gone in a NY minute.

So what's your point?

I knew you'd reply. :nod:I allowed it to happen and then super-cleaned the plate while telling the catcher if I even thought about missing another pitch he'd be gone. My BUs all thought it was intentional and gave me %$&$# for not ejecting both of them after the game. I didn't get a single ounce of crap after that occured. Did come up with a bruise, however.

Point being, I don't blindly throw people out on a whim. I do give the benefit of the doubt and was just curious how you'd handle a similar situation. Again, not baiting you.

I think we can agree to disagree on the other discussion.

[BrianC14]

I knew you'd reply. :nod:I allowed it to happen and then super-cleaned the plate while telling the catcher if I even thought about missing another pitch he'd be gone. My BUs all thought it was intentional and gave me %$&$# for not ejecting both of them after the game. I didn't get a single ounce of crap after that occured. Did come up with a bruise, however.

Point being, I don't blindly throw people out on a whim. I do give the benefit of the doubt and was just curious how you'd handle a similar situation. Again, not baiting you.

I think we can agree to disagree on the other discussion.

Well congratulations on changing the thread from "lazy catcher" to "vindictive catcher".

[digo21]

Now remember, this is from a rookie umpire. The first time a catcher "frames" a pitch and holds it, I give them this line:

"Son, throw the ball back to the pitcher and don't do it again".

It has worked so far. I don't know. It just popped into my head the first game I dealt with it.

I do not get what you are trying to say? What is wrong with a catcher framing the pitch? Do you mean he catches the ball and moves it in the SZ(I hate when catchers do this), or do you mean when he catches it and just holds it in the spot. I consider framing a pitch holding it in place. If that is the case, which rarely it is, it just helps you out because it makes selling your strikes that much easier. :D

[ShinySideUp]

I knew you'd reply. :nod:I allowed it to happen and then super-cleaned the plate while telling the catcher if I even thought about missing another pitch he'd be gone. My BUs all thought it was intentional and gave me %$&$# for not ejecting both of them after the game. I didn't get a single ounce of crap after that occured. Did come up with a bruise, however.

Point being, I don't blindly throw people out on a whim. I do give the benefit of the doubt and was just curious how you'd handle a similar situation. Again, not baiting you.

I think we can agree to disagree on the other discussion.

I hope I never work a game with that battery in place. They now know they can bean the umpire and not get tossed, but just get a stern talking-to.

This is one of the most obvious eject-able offenses I can imagine.

[ShinySideUp]

To the OP question ...

I was working a 12U USSSA tourney, and F2 was consistently setting up WAY outside, so when he caught the pitch in the middle of his body, it was borderline. When he had to reach for it at ALL, it was outside.

My lesson from that game: when the coach began chirping about "perfect pitches" being called balls, I should have addressed it directly. I think now that F2 thought he was in the right spot, because when the coach asked HIM where the pitch was, he shrugged as if to say, "I don't know why it was a ball."

I (mistakenly) let the coach chirp about the ball calls ... and when I balked his F1 for pausing his delivery (with R1 and R3) with his stride foot in the air, we got through the balk discussion, but I had to eject the coach when he started complaining about the strike zone.

The EJ report said he was ejected because he vehemently argued balls and strikes and said, in the presence of his players, "Your strike zone sucks. You're horrible!" The root cause, though, was I let F2 show me up because I wanted to "be the bigger man" and "let the kids play." My failure to address the issue let the coach get worked up to the point where a balk call sent him over the top.

Lesson learned. Never again.

[dawg-man]

I always tell a catcher who is too far out that he won't get those until he comes back in. They usually listen to you the first time if you say it the right way and no one gets shown up. If they do not move I tell them again and I have never had one stay outside unless they want it way out. I have either been extremely lucky with catchers or they just listen well. I have done this from LL level to high school and it will work.