Signalling the count

[chuck]

I see it done both ways. My recollection from a clinic by LL District UIC was, announce count, and show balls on right hand, strikes on left hand (holdin indicator). My rationalization is that from the field players and coaches read from their left to right, first balls then strikes. However, I see many umpires doing it the opposite. Advice?

[Ump Rube]

I cannot speak to LL specifically, but the generally accepted way across all rule sets (I believe) is to have the balls on the left hand, and strikes on the right. So as you look at them they are shown as read. The reasoning I heard when I first started was, "You call strikes with your right, show'em with your right."

[BrianC14]

I cannot speak to LL specifically, but the generally accepted way across all rule sets (I believe) is to have the balls on the left hand, and strikes on the right. So as you look at them they are shown as read. The reasoning I heard when I first started was, "You call strikes with your right, show'em with your right."

Ding ding! Cigar time.

[chuck]

Thank you, makes sense to me.

[catoblue]

Balls-left, Strikes-right, and the count should be given "two balls, one strike" not "2 and 1".

Also full count should be "three balls, two strikes", not "full count" - display three fingers up on the left hand and two fingers up on the right hand - NOT the closed fist that I see LL umpires use all the time.

[Ump Rube]

Fingers used for counting:

1 - Index finger

2 - Index & middle fingers

3 - Index, middle & ring fingers

4 - What the hell are you using 4 fingers for?

What do you use?

[willv28]

I was taught like everyone else mentioned. I do not do the closed fist thing and say full count. But my question is, does anyone not hold the opposite hand up when there's nothing on the other part of the count. Say there's two strikes only, do you hold up only the right hand with to fingers and saying two strikes, or do do you do you hold up the left hand in a fist like ball count was empty? I personally hold up the empty fist.

[BrianC14]

Balls-left, Strikes-right, and the count should be given "two balls, one strike" not "2 and 1".

Also full count should be "three balls, two strikes", not "full count" - display three fingers up on the left hand and two fingers up on the right hand - NOT the closed fist that I see LL umpires use all the time.

And don't hold them way up in the air, either.

When you signal a 2-2 count, you shouldn't look as though you're Richard Nixon on the steps of Marine 1.

Hold them out in front of you, about chest high. The only guy that needs to see the count is F1. :shrug:

[Mr Umpire]

Well, I will have to be the odd one out on this one.

I do not say 2 balls, 2 strikes. If you don't know what 2 - 2 means, then time to get off the ball field. I say 3 - 2 for a full count. It has nothing to do with being professional or not, only preference.

I cannot do the index finger and middle finger for a 2 count b/c it does feel like I am giving the peace sign or "I am not a crook" signal on a 2 - 2 count. I do the index finger and pinky finger b/c it physically feels better for my hands. And, I do the middle, ring, and pinky fingers for 3 for the same reason of physically.

And, I do hold up an empty fist for no balls or no strikes on the count.

[therefump]

Well, I will have to be the odd one out on this one.

I do not say 2 balls, 2 strikes. If you don't know what 2 - 2 means, then time to get off the ball field. I say 3 - 2 for a full count. It has nothing to do with being professional or not, only preference.

I cannot do the index finger and middle finger for a 2 count b/c it does feel like I am giving the peace sign or "I am not a crook" signal on a 2 - 2 count. I do the index finger and pinky finger b/c it physically feels better for my hands. And, I do the middle, ring, and pinky fingers for 3 for the same reason of physically.

And, I do hold up an empty fist for no balls or no strikes on the count.

Mr. Umpire, I'm shocked on this one. I generally agree with your assessments.

:ranton:Once I crossed the line from pitcher to umpire I forgot what two and two meant. Four? 2 Balls and 2 Strikes means something entirely different to me.

Also, "three and oh" means someone turned thirty? 3 balls and 2 strikes means a full count to me mentally.

Pet Peeve #3 (now that I'm at it) is trying to be Tom McCarthy (Phillies play by play announcer) and saying "The count holds" at (take your pick of counts). For an umpire what is the count holding?

Pet Peeve #4: Announcing the inning before the first batter takes his place. Who the hell cares if it's "Top of the First" or "Bottom of the Ninth"? We are not public address announcers nor should we be. That tells me that the PU is saying "Look at me, I'm the umpire and I'm in charge". We should be almost invisible.

Lastly, the count is announced and shown only for F1, F2, and Batter. I don't give a rats a** whether the 1st or 3rd coaches know it or not. We're really not there for them. Again, uniformity is key.

Whew, I'm finished. Where's the TP? Time to wipe myself.:shrug:

[Mr Umpire]

Mr. Umpire, I'm shocked on this one. I generally agree with your assessments.

:ranton:Once I crossed the line from pitcher to umpire I forgot what two and two meant. Four? 2 Balls and 2 Strikes means something entirely different to me.

Also, "three and oh" means someone turned thirty? 3 balls and 2 strikes means a full count to me mentally.

Pet Peeve #3 (now that I'm at it) is trying to be Tom McCarthy (Phillies play by play announcer) and saying "The count holds" at (take your pick of counts). For an umpire what is the count holding?

Pet Peeve #4: Announcing the inning before the first batter takes his place. Who the hell cares if it's "Top of the First" or "Bottom of the Ninth"? We are not public address announcers nor should we be. That tells me that the PU is saying "Look at me, I'm the umpire and I'm in charge". We should be almost invisible.

Lastly, the count is announced and shown only for F1, F2, and Batter. I don't give a rats a** whether the 1st or 3rd coaches know it or not. We're really not there for them. Again, uniformity is key.

Whew, I'm finished. Where's the TP? Time to wipe myself.

Oh well. I can't appease everyone all the time.

And, I believe this is an issue right up there with having an indicator. Do what feels comfortable and what your association wants. I do not believe it undermines any umpire based on how they call out the count.

The uniformity part should be in how the rules are handled. But, that falls by the waste line all the time. I want more uniformity on how the game is officiated, not how the official vocalizes their count.

We all have our own styles. We all have our own quirks. But, we all have the same rules. More effort should be focused on getting the rules applied evenly.

Also, I have seen a quote by Jim Evans. I don't know it verbatim but you will get the idea. "If an umpire can walk off the field unknown, then he has done his job." Jim Evans says something like "Whoever made that statement has never umpired a day in their life." If you have a game where they don't know you're there, then you had a pretty uneventful game. No close calls and no rule violations. We are not the ones who make ourselves known. It is the players and coaches who violate the rules that make our presence known. That is what we are there for. If they screw up, we let them know. Just like, we don't eject a player/coach. They eject themselves and we just tell them when.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[LMSANS]

Another variation...

3 and O; 2 and 1; etc. I don't say "balls" or "strikes", If you don't know what I mean you shouldn't be there.

I use the index and middle fingers for 2. I'm not a fan of the Univ of Texas. (not that there's anything wrong with that). 3 balls, I use my middle ring and pinky and hold my indicator with my thumb and index.

I will give the count after the 3rd pitch to a batter and then every other pitch unless there is a dead ball or extended break in the pitching (pickoff or whatever). I will use the fist for 0. When I give the count I will generally give it towards third and towards first on third pitch. (nobody can accuse me of playing favorites)

I give it high enough so that F1 can see it over the catcher.

If I have a working scoreboard and the count is accurate, I never give it.

[Mr Umpire]

"And" is part of the count? Where is the part "I now pronounce you"?:shrug:

[therefump]

Oh well. I can't appease everyone all the time.

And, I believe this is an issue right up there with having an indicator. Do what feels comfortable and what your association wants. I do not believe it undermines any umpire based on how they call out the count.

The uniformity part should be in how the rules are handled. But, that falls by the waste line all the time. I want more uniformity on how the game is officiated, not how the official vocalizes their count.

We all have our own styles. We all have our own quirks. But, we all have the same rules. More effort should be focused on getting the rules applied evenly.

Also, I have seen a quote by Jim Evans. I don't know it verbatim but you will get the idea. "If an umpire can walk off the field unknown, then he has done his job." Jim Evans says something like "Whoever made that statement has never umpired a day in their life." If you have a game where they don't know you're there, then you had a pretty uneventful game. No close calls and no rule violations. We are not the ones who make ourselves known. It is the players and coaches who violate the rules that make our presence known. That is what we are there for. If they screw up, we let them know. Just like, we don't eject a player/coach. They eject themselves and we just tell them when.

Well said, by you and by Jim Evans. I totally agree with even application of the rules.

[therefump]

"And" is part of the count? Where is the part "I now pronounce you"?

Obviously, you've never seen me do the game where I marry "balls and strikes". Oh, I just kill myself with my humor. :BD:

[mstaylor]

I used to not say ball or strike but I found I ran the numbers together and many times were asked the count again. I couple of years ago I started saying ball and strike as a way to slow it down and clear it up. I find I like it much better and try to get new guys to do the same thing.

[dileonardoja]

Balls-left, Strikes-right, and the count should be given "two balls, one strike" not "2 and 1".

Don't you mean to say you were trained to do it that way which is all fine and good. Just don't go telling everyone they should do it that way. Saying one-one, or two-oh is just fine and just as acceptable.

[catoblue]

Don't you mean to say you were trained to do it that way which is all fine and good. Just don't go telling everyone they should do it that way. Saying one-one, or two-oh is just fine and just as acceptable.

Yes... I WAS TRAINED to give the count that way AND since I exclusively do LL games, I also read that this is the way LL wants it in their publication "The Umpire in Little League" - the closest thing they have to a mechanics manual.

Ultimately, how the count is signaled is a personal preference, or more commonly, a mechanic that will be determined by a given umpire's association.

Just a wild guess, but I doubt anybody would get dinged on an evaluation for giving the count "3 balls, 2 strikes", while they just might get dinged on some of the other variants.

[PeteBooth]

And don't hold them way up in the air, either.

The only guy that needs to see the count is F1.

The aforementioned maybe true for PRO ball and perhaps College (other then a CBL league in the summer I do not call College ball so I will not speak for NCAA college baseball on this issue.) but NOT in HS etc.

Generally speaking the coaches at the HS level signal what pitches he wants F1 to throw.

In HS I give the count to each side and F1 so that EVERYBODY knows the count.

I do not give the count on the FIRST pitch but EVERY pitch there-after.

Why!

I get tired of hearing from BOTH COACHES "what's the count blue" so I simply give it to them. It's no big deal and does not waste any time.

Pete Booth

[Dragon29]

I concur 100% w/what mstaylor said. It's not that we don't think everyone knows what "two-two" or "three-one" means; it's that "Two balls, two strikes" simply takes longer to say, has 'breaks' between the numbers and comes out more clearly. "Two-two" can simply go by too quickly to be heard well all the time.

For me, I just think it's clearer but I agree it's not a big deal.

(and, yes, I hold up a closed fist of a count of zero)

[LMSANS]

Somewhere in my memory is hearing from an instructor at a clinic that it was not a good thing to say "2 balls"...:givebeer:

[therefump]

Somewhere in my memory is hearing from an instructor at a clinic that it was not a good thing to say "2 balls"...

Funny you mention that. Today, the catcher asked me why I specifically said to the coach "I need baseballs?" As he said it he realized why and turned beet red from laughter. I guess he had a great ride home on the bus with that story.

Also brings to mind that I will specifically say "two strikes" on an 0-2 count but will say "two balls and no strikes" on a 2-0 count.

Too many GLMs at my games to be impolite. GLM=Good Looking Mom:wave:

[willv28]

Funny you mention that. Today, the catcher asked me why I specifically said to the coach "I need baseballs?" As he said it he realized why and turned beet red from laughter. I guess he had a great ride home on the bus with that story.

Also brings to mind that I will specifically say "two strikes" on an 0-2 count but will say "two balls and no strikes" on a 2-0 count.

Too many GLMs at my games to be impolite. GLM=Good Looking Mom:wave:

In my last game there were so many 2-0 counts I couldn't help but start saying it "2 balls" I also made sure I said it with conviction.

[Umpire in Chief]

I only give the count on 2-1, 1-2, 3-0 & 3-2. It helps me maintain the count in my head.

[huntbomb72]

I was taught that the way you say it isn't as important as making sure you say it the same way for the whole game. However, you should never show two closed fists together for a 3-2 count. Ultimately though, this isn't nearly as important as knowing the rules that actually in the book and how to properly enforce the penalties for infractions.