Trips to the Mound and dead balls

[umpkid7]

I'm 14 and umped an M2 game behind the plate today. It was my first game in a while due to playing high school ball. I consider myself really well read for a teen age umpire and always win the obscure-baseball-rule-knowledge-umpire-competitions for our league Anyways, today I had a reallly crazy game.

Warm ups for theTop of the first, the Home coach, who I already knew was an absolute jerk, (but that's another story) goes out to the mound and watches his pitcher throw 4-5 pitches and comments to him. My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that that counts as the first trip to the mound. I inform him of this, and he grows irate and claims, get this: the other team, warming up half an hour ago should get charged with a trip to the mound for using the mound as a bull pen (there is no bullpen at our field). I inform him that is rediculous and further more not my jurisdiction. He then claims its still 1 minute before game time and therefore I have no jurisdicion yet. His ridiculous claims continue till I sit him down.

Then, he decides that my strike zone is way to small and has the nerve to call me "Kid" and tell me I can't see the plate because I haven't dusted it off well enough. (And I most surely could see the plate).

Then later in the game, the visiting coach decides to go talk to his pitcher after I call "Time" to dust the plate. But instead of taking a trip, he gets his catcher and pitcher to come talk to him a foot outside of the foul line. I inform him that its still a trip to his pitcher (correct me if I'm wrong) and that counts as a trip. He too gets mad

Then, bottom of the 6th (last inning), visitors up by 3, the first batter hits a shot to right and it goes into the Ivy, my partner (despite me warning him earlier) prematurely calls the ball dead. both coaches flip out because one says it should be a ground rule double, and one says it should be a homerun (what happened because the outfielders stopped.) Our league's ground rules are that the umpire should not stop play and should instead go out to the ivy. If he can see it clearly, the play continues, if he can't, the batter is given the bases the umpires feel he would have recieved had the ball not gotten lost in the ivy. I give the batter a triple because thats the bases he would have gotten if the ball hadn't been called dead, and both coaches flip out.

But thats not it. The next batter hits a shot up the middle that strikes my partner in the knee and, being ready, I immediately call the ball dead and send the runner back to third.

The jerk of a coach flips out saying "An umpire is a part of the field" and one fan even had the the nerves to question "are we playing real baseball here or not." Furthermore, the other team's coach argues the runner should score (the guy he just argued shouldn't on the previous play and made me contradict my partners call:banghead:

I have to leave them both mad and make the right call in not moving the runner on third (who was not forced to advance).

At the end of the game, leaving the park, I walk by the fan who asked if we were playing real baseball and he says to me "Good job...(pause)..calling balls and strikes" I politely thank him and walk away and as soon as I got out of earshot, i cracked up laughing at how little some people knew about baseball....

[willv28]

I'll let others comment about the trip issues, I'm unfamiliar with that league. As for the "the umpire is part of the field", he may have been "correct" depending on when it happened and if your league has the same umpire interference rule as other leagues. Unless there's umpire interference the ball stays alive. So, this happens in one of two cases, the umpire interferes with the catchers ability to make a play on a steal attempt or if a fair ball strikes an umpire before passing a fielder.

I didn't see the play so I don't know and you didn't define it clearly enough in the post. Where was the umpire positioned? If he was positioned in the infield by the 90' bases positioning and was struck before it passed a fielder, the ball is dead, but the batter does get credit for a base hit and runners advance only if forced.

If he was beyond any fielder in fair territory the ball would remain live.

[mstaylor]

I'm 14 and umped an M2 game behind the plate today. It was my first game in a while due to playing high school ball. I consider myself really well read for a teen age umpire and always win the obscure-baseball-rule-knowledge-umpire-competitions for our league Anyways, today I had a reallly crazy game.

Warm ups for theTop of the first, the Home coach, who I already knew was an absolute jerk, (but that's another story) goes out to the mound and watches his pitcher throw 4-5 pitches and comments to him. My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that that counts as the first trip to the mound. I inform him of this, and he grows irate and claims, get this: the other team, warming up half an hour ago should get charged with a trip to the mound for using the mound as a bull pen (there is no bullpen at our field). I inform him that is rediculous and further more not my jurisdiction. He then claims its still 1 minute before game time and therefore I have no jurisdicion yet. His ridiculous claims continue till I sit him down.

Then, he decides that my strike zone is way to small and has the nerve to call me "Kid" and tell me I can't see the plate because I haven't dusted it off well enough. (And I most surely could see the plate).

Then later in the game, the visiting coach decides to go talk to his pitcher after I call "Time" to dust the plate. But instead of taking a trip, he gets his catcher and pitcher to come talk to him a foot outside of the foul line. I inform him that its still a trip to his pitcher (correct me if I'm wrong) and that counts as a trip. He too gets mad

Then, bottom of the 6th (last inning), visitors up by 3, the first batter hits a shot to right and it goes into the Ivy, my partner (despite me warning him earlier) prematurely calls the ball dead. both coaches flip out because one says it should be a ground rule double, and one says it should be a homerun (what happened because the outfielders stopped.) Our league's ground rules are that the umpire should not stop play and should instead go out to the ivy. If he can see it clearly, the play continues, if he can't, the batter is given the bases the umpires feel he would have recieved had the ball not gotten lost in the ivy. I give the batter a triple because thats the bases he would have gotten if the ball hadn't been called dead, and both coaches flip out.

But thats not it. The next batter hits a shot up the middle that strikes my partner in the knee and, being ready, I immediately call the ball dead and send the runner back to third.

The jerk of a coach flips out saying "An umpire is a part of the field" and one fan even had the the nerves to question "are we playing real baseball here or not." Furthermore, the other team's coach argues the runner should score (the guy he just argued shouldn't on the previous play and made me contradict my partners call:banghead:

I have to leave them both mad and make the right call in not moving the runner on third (who was not forced to advance).

At the end of the game, leaving the park, I walk by the fan who asked if we were playing real baseball and he says to me "Good job...(pause)..calling balls and strikes" I politely thank him and walk away and as soon as I got out of earshot, i cracked up laughing at how little some people knew about baseball....

First, welcome to the site. In the first sitch, it is not a visit unless he is delaying the pitcher from warming up or his is delaying the start of the inning. As far as the pregame warm-up that is nothing.

The coach yakking about the zone needs to be shutdown immediately. If after warning he gets personal, as in your example, dump him.

The coach that calls the pitcher and catcher over is a visit, just as you say. Even if he just talks to the catcher and the catcher goes to the mound, that's a visit also.

In the case of the ivy, I would probably make it a double. After the game explain to your partner that he needs to follow the proper mechanic and go look first. Maybe after this he will see the importance of doing it right.

The umpire getting hit on the infield is a dead ball if the umpire is in front of the fielders. My question is, wasn't he in the grass behind the fielders? You said it was minors so I am assuming 60ft bases. If the umpire is behind the fielders then the coach is correct, the umpire is part of the field.

[umpkid7]

thanks for the input, in terms of the ball in the ivy, i agree it should be a double, but league rules clearly state that it should be up to the umpires and the kid was trucking and would have easily had 3 bags.

And i know 100% that the ball was dead, this was how i got known for being the umpire who knew all the semi obscure rules. 7.08f is my favorite rule in the book. Anyways, he was in the C position and in front of the infielders and behind the pitcher, the pitcher clearly did not touch the ball.

[umpkid7]

So my league says that talking to the pitchers between innings should be a trip (lets put that issue aside.) Assuming that that is a trip between innings normally, is there any legitimacy to the argument that I can't call that before the first pitch?

[blindumpire99]

Welcome to the forum kid....Yes you are right, it IS amazing just how little folks do know about baseball... I bet those obscure rule contests can get pretty hilarious sometimes, huh?

This board is a good place to learn and belittling other officials doesn't happen here to the extents of other umpire forums. And seeing as you are only 14, you have come to the right place to learn, so dive right on in!

But I will say that your post should be moved to the 'Funny Situations' category. I espeically enjoyed the league rule of an umpiure running out to the ivy and then rulling on whether or not he can see it:WTF:spit:

Don't get discouraged though...Just learn here on how to take a more proactive approach to dumping any idiotic coaches such as you described..

[therefump]

So my league says that talking to the pitchers between innings should be a trip (lets put that issue aside.) Assuming that that is a trip between innings normally, is there any legitimacy to the argument that I can't call that before the first pitch?

Hey Welcome to the site,

It's great to see young blood enter the brotherhood of umpires. I've enjoyed what I've read so far. Don't let the coaches get you down but don't be arrogant......just advice, nothing I've read to say otherwise.

Personally, no pitcher should get to use the "game" mound as a warm up area. Pitchers should throw on the side. Charging a coach a trip to the mound prior to the game starting? I'm not familiar with LL rules but that seems a stretch. I could be wrong and would like to hear from others.

On this quote:

Then, he decides that my strike zone is way to small and has the nerve to call me "Kid" and tell me I can't see the plate because I haven't dusted it off well enough. (And I most surely could see the plate).

That's an ejection in my book. He's questioning balls and strikes first, but more importantly, he's insulting you. Toss 'em.

As for the other calls, you'll be questioned but you're right on all accounts.

Keep posting.

[umpkid7]

I guess i could have been a little more clear, he didn't call me a kid to my face, the direct quote was "what's wrong with this kid" and it was said to his assistant coach.

[willv28]

thanks for the input, in terms of the ball in the ivy, i agree it should be a double, but league rules clearly state that it should be up to the umpires and the kid was trucking and would have easily had 3 bags.

And i know 100% that the ball was dead, this was how i got known for being the umpire who knew all the semi obscure rules. 7.08f is my favorite rule in the book. Anyways, he was in the C position and in front of the infielders and behind the pitcher, the pitcher clearly did not touch the ball.

Right but you didn't mention if the batter was given 1B or not. He should have been.

Also, never "warn" your partner of anything during a game. Only mention such things after the game. When he called it dead, it was dead and you need to live with whatever his action caused unless any change doesn't unfairly reward or put someone at a disadvantage. It's possible he thought the ball left play, we've had that were with similar things. In this case it would have been reasonable, but any change should have been discussed before being reached (this play would not fall under 9.04©). I imagine you'd find it unreasonable to take any ball the remains in the field of play that was called foul and make it fair, things like that. There's some mistakes you'll have to eat and calling a dead ball is the biggest offender. Being that it was called dead, I would most likely find the reasonable call to make it a double but that's a HTBT. Just so you don't run into it, remember, it's up to the umpire making the call to change it and coaches need to go to the umpire making the call to argue and it's up to that umpire if he even wants to discuss and/or change the call.

Don't take anything the wrong way, you're more knowledgeable than many of the umpires I've worked with (from other towns of course) and seem nice.

Welcome and enjoy.

[umpkid7]

Right but you didn't mention if the batter was given 1B or not. He should have been.

Thanks willv28, and your right, I did neglect to mention that, but of course I gave him first base.

Thanks so much to everyone for all the input!

[willv28]

Welcome to the forum kid....Yes you are right, it IS amazing just how little folks do know about baseball... I bet those obscure rule contests can get pretty hilarious sometimes, huh?

This board is a good place to learn and belittling other officials doesn't happen here to the extents of other umpire forums. And seeing as you are only 14, you have come to the right place to learn, so dive right on in!

But I will say that your post should be moved to the 'Funny Situations' category. I espeically enjoyed the league rule of an umpiure running out to the ivy and then rulling on whether or not he can see it:WTF:spit:

Don't get discouraged though...Just learn here on how to take a more proactive approach to dumping any idiotic coaches such as you described..

Well in little league there's always something, holes in fences, odd fields, corners. Until the fields were heavily altered and given new fences this past fall there were huge holes in the fences in left field. We had a similar rule as their ivy rule. Only with ours we were dealing with a ball that could disappear especially since it went under or through the fence and from long distance you cannot tell if it was past the fence or not. So, the rule was the kids had to immediately put their hands up. Then play continued and the field or plate umpire if only umpire goes to verify it went under the fence.

[Mr Umpire]

Trips to the mound: As others said, if it doesn't delay the game in any way, leave it alone. More trouble than it is worth. Only call it if he delays the game in any way and yes, delaying the start of the game is counted as a visit. Also, once the umpire is given the baseballs, that is considered to start the game. At that point is when the umpires' authority begins. Until then, you have no authority over anything, including where the VT pitcher warmed up.

Ivy: I understand the ivy is a local league rule and always a HTBT situation for this league. I would always just give a ground rule double. Nobody can question your judgment on that and you always have OBR rules to support your decision. Remember, nothing is guaranteed in the game of baseball.

Otherwise, as others have said, just b/c you know the rules doesn't mean to get arrogant with it. Also, part of umpiring is not just knowing the rules, but applying them sensibly. Many times, common sense rules over knowing the exact wording of the rule. Intent of the rule applies as well. And, the trips to the mound is one of them.

But, I do have one question. What was your partner doing to get hit with the ball? I have been doing this now for 18 years and have never been hit with the batted ball or thrown ball. I have only been hit with pitches. I honestly cannot stand to see an umpire get hit with a batted ball b/c then, I would question his judgment skills. Not as an umpire, but as a coach/player.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[willv28]

But, I do have one question. What was your partner doing to get hit with the ball? I have been doing this now for 18 years and have never been hit with the batted ball or thrown ball. I have only been hit with pitches. I honestly cannot stand to see an umpire get hit with a batted ball b/c then, I would question his judgment skills. Not as an umpire, but as a coach/player.

That's what I was thinking. Sounds like he was using 90' position mechanics on the 60' diamond, that would certainly explain it. I've been almost hit, but that was always in A position every time and I always had enough time to react. For some reason when I'm in A that's when about every other batted ball is a line drive right in my direction. I think they like to try to hit the ball at me.

[umpkid7]

lets just say, my partner has good intentions, but is neither particularly cordinated, nor has good reflexes.

It's weird, i have had my partner get hit in the last 2 games i have umped (different guys). Could be the 60' bases.

[mstaylor]

They shouldn't be inside on 60ft bases. They need to do the same mechanics but from the outfield side. What organizatiion are you playing under, LL, Pony,BR or something independant? If you are using closed bases the BU needs to be outside to see leaving early. I started as a teen and can appreciate the problem of coaches questioning a teen in authority.

[umpkid7]

They shouldn't be inside on 60ft bases. They need to do the same mechanics but from the outfield side. If you are using closed bases the BU needs to be outside to see leaving early.

That is a really good point I never even considered. its Pony. For M2, we only need to watch the runner on 3rd for leaving early, so then its not as big of a deal, but for M1, where no runners can leave early, that's a really good point, i'll bring that up with my league directors.

[LeoDev]

But, I do have one question. What was your partner doing to get hit with the ball? I have been doing this now for 18 years and have never been hit with the batted ball or thrown ball. I have only been hit with pitches. I honestly cannot stand to see an umpire get hit with a batted ball b/c then, I would question his judgment skills.

I feel that this is a short-sighted response.

I have only been hit as a BU one time.

HS Fed rules. I was in "C" position. The was sun was going down behind the plate.

Sharply hit one hopper the I couldn't see off the bat right away. By the time I saw it, it was too late. I jumped, but it got me on the inside of the right leg.

Just because an BU gets hit by a batted ball, it doesn't mean the he has bad judgment. Sometimes it just happens.

[mstaylor]

I feel that this is a short-sighted response.

I have only been hit as a BU one time.

HS Fed rules. I was in "C" position. The was sun was going down behind the plate.

Sharply hit one hopper the I couldn't see off the bat right away. By the time I saw it, it was too late. I jumped, but it got me on the inside of the right leg.

Just because an BU gets hit by a batted ball, it doesn't mean the he has bad judgment. Sometimes it just happens.

I agree, I got hit about 26 years ago in the toe in a HS game, hasn't happened since. About five years ago, we had three guys get hit in a week in our men's league. It happens but it should be rare.

[Mr Umpire]

I feel that this is a short-sighted response.

I have only been hit as a BU one time.

HS Fed rules. I was in "C" position. The was sun was going down behind the plate.

Sharply hit one hopper the I couldn't see off the bat right away. By the time I saw it, it was too late. I jumped, but it got me on the inside of the right leg.

Just because an BU gets hit by a batted ball, it doesn't mean the he has bad judgment. Sometimes it just happens.

I understand it just happens at times. And, if you read the sentence after, I do not question it as an umpire. But, coaches and players question it as soon as it happens. They do not care if the umpire has an excuse. Short sighted, maybe. I have one field where they decided to paint the concession stand a light yellow(or off-white color) with it right behind HP. Talk about hard to pick up the ball at times.

But, nonetheless, still don't like it b/c it is viewed to be bad judgment of the ball. And, then they begin to question judgment of plays.:smachhead:

Edited May 3, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[jjb]

Welcome UK7: I hope you'll stay here, ask questions, and learn from some very experienced umpires. Understand, you've got a lot to learn, and we're happy to help.

Anyway, I hope you've picked up a few things here:

1. the value of a pre-game meeting with your partner, and a plate meeting with the coaches. You can go over and reinforce any ground rules.

2. the value of umpiring, not by the book, but with the book. You're not out there to show everybody how much you know about the rules, but to make sure the game is fairly played. Sometimes, you've just got to sit back, see what happened, and do what's right.

3. The comment from the HC to the AC, referring to you as "kid", was not directed to the AC, it was directed to you. You should have tossed him.

4. You need to use outside mechanics on any field that has a "leaving early" rule. You'll need eyes like a gecko to see the plate and the runner, from inside.

5. When in doubt, let the play go, and then kill it. You can always place the runners later, if you have to. Once it's dead, it's dead, and you can't bring it back to life.

6. Coaches and parents play the game with their hearts, not with their eyes. When your partner got hit, each side immediately went into "I get the benefit of the play" mode. When they don't get what they want, then you are, by definition, wrong.

7. Finally, like it or not, you're at a disadvantage out there. We adult umpires, who show up in uniform, generally gain a level of respect just by walking out there. You, as an umpire many years younger than the coaches, don't have that advantage. You need to develop your respect by other means. Now, being arrogant (what we call the Big Badge in law Enforcement), doesnt work, and will work against you. Being Professional, calm, and hustling your a** off will work for you, and you'll be known as one of the "good ones".

Good Luck, and keep working

[mstaylor]

jjb gives good advice. It is good you have a strong rules knowledge, it will get you out of a lot of scrapes. However, don't go out there being a rules nazi or an OOO. ( over officious official) 80% of the game is played with 20% of the rules. You want to try and keep it that way, don't pull out an obscure rule when it isn't appropriate. Now when something wierd happens, that is where the strong rules knowledge comes in, make the correct ruling and you gain respect beyond your years. Being an OOO will do damage to your reputation for several years. It is easier to build a good reputation than overcome a bad one.

[MCLEOD36]

Heck, welcome aboard Kid, you are taking the right approach. Know the rules, and keep calling games and you will keep getting better. If coaches, see you around the game and you are hustling, the respect grows very quickly.

[Stan W.]

welcome to the site.....study hard....be humble.....there are only 2 types of umpires in baseball.....the humble ones or the one that are about to be.....

then start saving for Pro school.......!!!

welcome..

[Jay R]

Hey "kid",

Your post had a number of situations that are worth discussing. You seem to be quite mature for your age and that's quite important because you are mostly dealing with "adult" coaches (they don't always act like adults).

Here is my two cents. As long as you are involved in this avocation, you will never stop being amazed at some of the comments and acts of coaches and some players. You can't control their actions only yours. When someone gets angry at you or your call; stay calm even if you eject them. When someone says something sarcastic; don't reply with sarcasm. When someone insists on having the last word; let them. Always behave like a responsible adult even if the supposed adult coach is behaving like a spoiled child. This way you will earn respect and never have to worry that you were the reason why a situation escalated.

You seem to be on the right track. Keep it up.

[Umpire in Chief]

Hey "kid",

Your post had a number of situations that are worth discussing. You seem to be quite mature for your age and that's quite important because you are mostly dealing with "adult" coaches (they don't always act like adults).

Here is my two cents. As long as you are involved in this avocation, you will never stop being amazed at some of the comments and acts of coaches and some players. You can't control their actions only yours. When someone gets angry at you or your call; stay calm even if you eject them. When someone says something sarcastic; don't reply with sarcasm. When someone insists on having the last word; let them. Always behave like a responsible adult even if the supposed adult coach is behaving like a spoiled child. This way you will earn respect and never have to worry that you were the reason why a situation escalated.

You seem to be on the right track. Keep it up.

Great Post!