Throwing through dead ball territory (and an almost Bingo card moment)

[The Man in Blue]

I will start with "I don't like doing this" . . . however there is a rural school that I cannot get to until just before game time.  I don't like doing this, but the school and the assignor both know this and still keep asking to have me back.  The game there today was moved due to rain, but still a location that I am pressed to get to.

I pull into the parking lot, my partner acknowledges me, and goes to get the plate meeting going.  I do a Wonder Woman change and run up to the field.

My partner and the "visiting" coach (visiting team on their home field) are going toe to toe already.  This coach is that coach.  For a few moments, I thought we were going to get the "plate meeting ejection" marker on our Bingo card.  For a hot second, I wanted to pull that ripcord, but I figured I just got there, it would be a really bad look.

What they were going round and round on was the coach wanted the offset bullpens to be live, but allow a fielder in the corner to throw over the fences and through dead ball territory to make a play.  

The opposing coach was just standing there rolling his eyes.  They looked at me.  I said, "Well, the easy answer is to just go pole to pole and make the bullpens dead."  The argument when on for a few more moments with both of them leaving at talking to the area clinician.

 

Looking at the NFHS rule for a dead ball . . . "a pitch or other thrown ball . . . goes into a stand or other dead ball area or player's bench (even if it rebounds to the field) . . . "  So, yeah, throwing into dead ball territory is a dead ball.  There is no exception based on what happens after that (e.g., if it exits unimpeded).

Just wanted to see if anybody has a different take.

 

Coach tried a few other shady things during the game, but it wouldn't be one of his games if he didn't. 

[jimurrayalterego]

15 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I will start with "I don't like doing this" . . . however there is a rural school that I cannot get to until just before game time.  I don't like doing this, but the school and the assignor both know this and still keep asking to have me back.  The game there today was moved due to rain, but still a location that I am pressed to get to.

I pull into the parking lot, my partner acknowledges me, and goes to get the plate meeting going.  I do a Wonder Woman change and run up to the field.

My partner and the "visiting" coach (visiting team on their home field) are going toe to toe already.  This coach is that coach.  For a few moments, I thought we were going to get the "plate meeting ejection" marker on our Bingo card.  For a hot second, I wanted to pull that ripcord, but I figured I just got there, it would be a really bad look.

What they were going round and round on was the coach wanted the offset bullpens to be live, but allow a fielder in the corner to throw over the fences and through dead ball territory to make a play.  

The opposing coach was just standing there rolling his eyes.  They looked at me.  I said, "Well, the easy answer is to just go pole to pole and make the bullpens dead."  The argument when on for a few more moments with both of them leaving at talking to the area clinician.

 

Looking at the NFHS rule for a dead ball . . . "a pitch or other thrown ball . . . goes into a stand or other dead ball area or player's bench (even if it rebounds to the field) . . . "  So, yeah, throwing into dead ball territory is a dead ball.  There is no exception based on what happens after that (e.g., if it exits unimpeded).

Just wanted to see if anybody has a different take.

 

Coach tried a few other shady things during the game, but it wouldn't be one of his games if he didn't. 

I don't have a picture of what you describe. But I do know you can throw through a dead ball media area.

[NavyBlue]

 I have always considered that a ball that travels through the airspace above foul territory is not foul because of that, and a ball that travels through the airspace above dead ball territory is likewise not dead because of that.

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Looking at the NFHS rule for a dead ball . . . "a pitch or other thrown ball . . . goes into a stand or other dead ball area or player's bench (even if it rebounds to the field) . . . "  So, yeah, throwing into dead ball territory is a dead ball.  There is no exception based on what happens after that (e.g., if it exits unimpeded).

So, a high foul ball that goes over DBT (eg. row ten of the stands behind the dugouts) and then is blown back to the field of play to be caught is "dead"??

Maybe it doesn't say so explicitly but my understanding was always that the condition making the ball dead was TOUCHING something in dead ball territory - the air not qualifying for "something".

Otherwise, by the standard you lay out, a player could never reach over a fence to make a catch, because it would always be dead by virtue of it having entered DBT.

[The Man in Blue]

18 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I don't have a picture of what you describe. But I do know you can throw through a dead ball media area.

Blue is the fence line.  Green is the proposed "allowed" throw over dead ball territory.

 

Case play 1.2.8 Situation B does allow a thrown ball over a designated media area.  While all designated media areas are dead ball territory, not all dead ball territory is a designated media area.  

[The Man in Blue]

8 hours ago, NavyBlue said:

 I have always considered that a ball that travels through the airspace above foul territory is not foul because of that, and a ball that travels through the airspace above dead ball territory is likewise not dead because of that.

 

I'm leaning on @jimurrayalterego and I'm leaning on you not disagree, but to challenge you and your thinking.  I believe you can work your way to either result.  I also went to the logic you and @beerguy55 present for a moment, but then I came back to . . . 

A batted ball and a thrown ball are different, with different defined statuses.  Yes, we know a batted ball can be caught over dead ball territory and can even go over DBT and blow back (I had a ball wrap around a light pole and come back for a catch).  However, a thrown ball is different.  A thrown ball is much more controlled and intentional, so a player is expected to exert that control and intentionality.  Penalties and rules on thrown balls carry the standard "thrown into dead ball territory".  I am finding nothing on allowing any different outcome based on the throw's exit of DBT.

Like I said, I believe you can present a case for either side.  Personally, I am coming down on the "no go" side, as batted and thrown balls are treated differently, and a designated media area and DBT are different things.

  

[jimurrayalterego]

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Blue is the fence line.  Green is the proposed "allowed" throw over dead ball territory.

 

Case play 1.2.8 Situation B does allow a thrown ball over a designated media area.  While all designated media areas are dead ball territory, not all dead ball territory is a designated media area.  

Back when OBR and NCAA allowed throwing from dead ball territory such as the dugout I they did not allow throws from the spectator area. This looks like the area could have spectators and, if so, I would not allow it.

[jimurrayalterego]

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Blue is the fence line.  Green is the proposed "allowed" throw over dead ball territory.

 

Case play 1.2.8 Situation B does allow a thrown ball over a designated media area.  While all designated media areas are dead ball territory, not all dead ball territory is a designated media area.  

Back when OBR and NCAA allowed throwing from dead ball territory such as the dugout I they did not allow throws from the spectator area. This looks like the area could have spectators and, if so, I would not allow it.