Force play confusion

[Paperipper17]

This is in response to the Force Play at Home thread. JNazz made reference to the B/R beating the throw to first but missing the base, and the defense having to appeal before the out is awarded. I've never had this situation, but I've heard the same thing before. I looked at the rulebook and found some conflicting info...

2-29-3

"...when a runner advances past a base to which he is forced without touching it, the force play remains."

8-2-8

"A runner acquires the right to the proper unoccupied base if he touches it before he is out."

Both these rules would lead me to believe that until the base is touched by the runner, the force is on.

But...

8-4-2(j)

"A runner is out if he fails to reach the next base before a fielder either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base...There shall be no accidental appeals on a force play."

So according to the first two, the B/R in that situation should be out. According to the third, he is safe, and according to the no accidental appeals clause, the mere fact that F3's foot is on the bag and he has possession of the ball isn't enough for an out. Now, assuming that B/R has returned to legally touch first before the appeal, how does the appeal happen? Does DC argue that the runner was forced before he touched, or can he even actually appeal now that B/R has touched the base? Are these questions a sane person would ask, or have I finally lost it? Was the rulebook INTENTIONALLY written to be maddeningly vague?

:bang:

[dddunn3d]

The batter becoming a runner is not a force play at 1B.

[JaxRolo]

The batter becoming a runner is not a force play at 1B.

Why not? You are not required to tag the runner.

[JaxRolo]

Lydon,

An appeal must be made before the BR makes it back to the base. Otherwise no appeal

[mazzamouth]

The batter becoming a runner is not a force play at 1B.

Why not? You are not required to tag the runner.

because it is not a force,

Force play.. A play in which the runner legally loses his right to occupy the base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

[noumpere]

The force play remains because if there is an appeal and its the third out no runs score and in fed if the runner has started to return you can get a force out by stepping on the bag and making the appeal no tag is needed.

While the batter is not forced to first its the same thing in all practical aspects.

So in the original post F3 can make an obvious appeal and tag the batter or the base before the batter returns to make the appeal.

[mtnump]

The way I am reading this it is still a force as the runner never legally acquired the base by touching it. So if the base is touched by the fielder before the runner touches it I am thinking "out" no matter the position of the runner - ie hasn't reached base, over base but not touching, past base without touching.

[Rich Ives]

The way I am reading this it is still a force as the runner never legally acquired the base by touching it. So if the base is touched by the fielder before the runner touches it I am thinking "out" no matter the position of the runner - ie hasn't reached base, over base but not touching, past base without touching.

Nope - it's a missed base and a missed base requires an appeal.

THEN if it's the third (or 4th) out it can be treated as a force (or a "before the BR reached 1B") for purposes of whehter or not runs score.

[mtnump]

If the play is continuing and the runner has attempted to regain the base and has not yet touched the base in a force situation all that has to be done is touch the base. I am in the Fed Casebook 8.2.2. In FED it specifically statest that it is not an appeal if the runner is attempting to regain the base as action is continuing. If the base missed was a force and the base is touched before the runner returns...OUT!

LL 7.08e (sorry don't have obr handy) the force is not removed until the runner touches the base he is forced to advance to. the outcome is the same...OUT!

[SnareDrum]

If the play is continuing and the runner has attempted to regain the base and has not yet touched the base in a force situation all that has to be done is touch the base. I am in the Fed Casebook 8.2.2. In FED it specifically statest that it is not an appeal if the runner is attempting to regain the base as action is continuing. If the base missed was a force and the base is touched before the runner returns...OUT!

LL 7.08e (sorry don't have obr handy) the force is not removed until the runner touches the base he is forced to advance to. the outcome is the same...OUT!

THANK YOU!!! Now THAT makes sense!

BUT... is the call SAFE, then OUT (eww), or just OUT? And does the same apply at 1B? Just trying to get it all straight... I want to toss this to a couple of newbs tonight.

[mtnump]

If the play is continuing and the runner has attempted to regain the base and has not yet touched the base in a force situation all that has to be done is touch the base. I am in the Fed Casebook 8.2.2. In FED it specifically statest that it is not an appeal if the runner is attempting to regain the base as action is continuing. If the base missed was a force and the base is touched before the runner returns...OUT!

LL 7.08e (sorry don't have obr handy) the force is not removed until the runner touches the base he is forced to advance to. the outcome is the same...OUT!

THANK YOU!!! Now THAT makes sense!

BUT... is the call SAFE, then OUT (eww), or just OUT? And does the same apply at 1B? Just trying to get it all straight... I want to toss this to a couple of newbs tonight.

I am not making a call until the play is finished...so either the player touches the base before the fielder "SAFE!" Or the fielder with the ball touches the base before the runner..."OUT!!!"

I would not call or signal safe at first if the runner beat the throw but missed the bag as that is not an accurate call...I look at it like calling an out on a tag play and then seeing the ball roll away. You don't make the call until you see the whole play...

[SnareDrum]

If the play is continuing and the runner has attempted to regain the base and has not yet touched the base in a force situation all that has to be done is touch the base. I am in the Fed Casebook 8.2.2. In FED it specifically statest that it is not an appeal if the runner is attempting to regain the base as action is continuing. If the base missed was a force and the base is touched before the runner returns...OUT!

LL 7.08e (sorry don't have obr handy) the force is not removed until the runner touches the base he is forced to advance to. the outcome is the same...OUT!

THANK YOU!!! Now THAT makes sense!

BUT... is the call SAFE, then OUT (eww), or just OUT? And does the same apply at 1B? Just trying to get it all straight... I want to toss this to a couple of newbs tonight.

I am not making a call until the play is finished...so either the player touches the base before the fielder "SAFE!" Or the fielder with the ball touches the base before the runner..."OUT!!!"

I would not call or signal safe at first if the runner beat the throw but missed the bag as that is not an accurate call...I look at it like calling an out on a tag play and then seeing the ball roll away. You don't make the call until you see the whole play...

That's what I was thinking (and seeing the "whole play" is something I really rub in too). Thanks!

BUT... I still remember some others saying that at 1B if the runner beat the throw but missed the bag it's SAFE (as I've mentioned somewhere else, I've never seen it, but...)...

Situation: Nobody on, easy grounder to F6 and BR thinks he's going to be out by a mile. BR lazy trots as F6 bobbles the ball (Coach will have BR running his laps later!). Throw is late, but because BR is being lazy, he obviously to all steps over first with a long stride. Now F3 is standing there with foot on bag. Safe or Out? Do you wait to see what the BR does next? If you say safe, and the DC and you could have a very polite discussion about it, what do you tell him?

This is a good thread... I'd rather get any "confusion" out of the way now. It is indeed an interesting set of rules in a game where the object of the game is to touch the bases in order instead of just run past them (tongue planted firmly in cheek! settle down!). Love this forum!!

[Paperipper17]

That's what I was thinking (and seeing the "whole play" is something I really rub in too). Thanks!

BUT... I still remember some others saying that at 1B if the runner beat the throw but missed the bag it's SAFE...

Nobody on, easy grounder to F6 and BR thinks he's going to be out by a mile. BR lazy trots as F6 bobbles the ball (Coach will have BR running his laps later!). Throw is late, but because BR is being lazy, he obviously to all steps over first with a long stride. Now F3 is standing there with foot on bag. Safe or Out? Do you wait to see what the BR does next? If you say safe, and the DC and you could have a very polite discussion about it, what do you tell him?

This is a good thread... I'd rather get any "confusion" out of the way now. It is indeed an interesting set of rules in a game where the object of the game is to touch the bases in order.

My question exactly. If F3 must touch first to appeal, and since there is a no accidental appeals clause, does he have to get our attention to the fact he's now appealing before B/R makes it back? It seems to me this situation is unfairly biased to the offense...

[mtnump]

It is not an appeal until the runner gives up his right to that base by either advancing to the next base or heading to the dugout. At first I still say the force applies because the BR never legally acquired the base. If you call safe and the runner then comes back from overrunning first and stands on the bag he has now corrected the situation and there is no appeal which totally screws the defense. If you make no call everyone is wondering what the he!! you were looking at. The only call that matches what actually happened and is supported in the rulebook is OUT! The base was touched by the defensive player with the ball before the runner legally acquired it.

[SnareDrum]

It is not an appeal until the runner gives up his right to that base by either advancing to the next base or heading to the dugout. At first I still say the force applies because the BR never legally acquired the base. If you call safe and the runner then comes back from overrunning first and stands on the bag he has now corrected the situation and there is no appeal which totally screws the defense. If you make no call everyone is wondering what the he!! you were looking at. The only call that matches what actually happened and is supported in the rulebook is OUT! The base was touched by the defensive player with the ball before the runner legally acquired it.

I'd call out too, but I swear, I saw a post somewhere recently where someone said that in the sitch I have above, the call is SAFE. If I have time, I'll try to find it...

[JaxRolo]

It is not an appeal until the runner gives up his right to that base by either advancing to the next base or heading to the dugout. At first I still say the force applies because the BR never legally acquired the base. If you call safe and the runner then comes back from overrunning first and stands on the bag he has now corrected the situation and there is no appeal which totally screws the defense. If you make no call everyone is wondering what the he!! you were looking at. The only call that matches what actually happened and is supported in the rulebook is OUT! The base was touched by the defensive player with the ball before the runner legally acquired it.

I'd call out too, but I swear, I saw a post somewhere recently where someone said that in the sitch I have above, the call is SAFE. If I have time, I'll try to find it...

The correct call is "safe". We went over this at the Southern Umpires Camp

[Rich Ives]

MLBUM Section 5.4 Play 12. and PBUC Section 6.4 Play 13 (and LL RIM)

The correct call is safe.

It is a missed base. missed base requires an appeal.

[Rich Ives]

My question exactly. If F3 must touch first to appeal, and since there is a no accidental appeals clause, does he have to get our attention to the fact he's now appealing before B/R makes it back?

Yes.

Because it's an appeal play.

It's an appeal because it's a missed base.

You can tag the runner instead of the base.

[cookie]

The clinics I have been to (most recently, Jim Evans FL Classic) instruct the BU umpire to call "SAFE" if the BR beats the throw but misses the base and then await an appeal by the defense. If the base or runner is tagged before he gets back, then indicate "OUT."

[mtnump]

That may be the case for OBR, but that is not how I am reading Fed and LL...

[dddunn3d]

What about the case where the BR has passed 1B, but missed it, then 1/2 second later the throw is gloved by F3 while still tagging the base?

My point being that an appeal has to be unmistakable, so in this situation someone has to point out the fact of the BR missing the base. Or go and tag the BR before he gets back to 1B.

[mstaylor]

That is how it is in all rule sets. On a force at ANY base, including home, if the runner misses the base you have to call safe. Then the fielder must make an appeal. Passing a base is considered touching it hence the safe call. Then once the fielder makes a valid appeal then he is called out. Remember the ball must arrrive after the runner has completely passed the base. So on a play at first, the trail foot has to completely clear the base to be called safe.

[carolinablue]

That is how it is in all rule sets. On a force at ANY base, including home, if the runner misses the base you have to call safe. Then the fielder must make an appeal. Passing a base is considered touching it hence the safe call. Then once the fielder makes a valid appeal then he is called out. Remember the ball must arrrive after the runner has completely passed the base. So on a play at first, the trail foot has to completely clear the base to be called safe.

Thanks. I think you summed up two threads worth of debate with this one post.

[mstaylor]

Not a problem. :)

[mazzamouth]

I am not making a call until the play is finished...so either the player touches the base before the fielder "SAFE!" Or the fielder with the ball touches the base before the runner..."OUT!!!"

I would not call or signal safe at first if the runner beat the throw but missed the bag as that is not an accurate call...I look at it like calling an out on a tag play and then seeing the ball roll away. You don't make the call until you see the whole play...

See the problem is , you have to make a call, cause your telling everyone that that the runner beat the ball, or ( it doesn't make a difference if he missed the base) the ball beat the runner... so you have to tell the defense, it is there job to know if he missed a base.. heck how many times you seen a guy miss 2nd or 3rd, but no one appeal? Are you gonna make some sort of gesture that the runner missed a base?