Does "voluntary and intentional" apply for something like a pitcher covering first to get the force?

[orangebird]

I don't have an actual video of this scenario since I just thought of it but I'm sure it's happened before somewhere in a game and I realized I'm not 100% sure how it'd apply/not apply

Pitcher runs towards first to cover the base on a force, F3 flips it to him, he steps on the base with the ball secure in his glove but right afterwards it pops out.

Is the runner safe because the release wasn't voluntary and intentional, or does voluntary and intentional only apply for catching a liner/flyball/etc in the air?

[Replacematt]

No, it does not apply. 

This is a tag (of a base.) For a tag to be valid, a fielder must have secure possession of the ball during and through the act of completing the tag. After that, it does not matter if possession is maintained or how it is lost.

Now, in your situation, I'd be incredulous that the fielder had secure possession of the ball if it popped out without any external force (which is a matter of judgment.)

There are rulesets that mention voluntary release regarding a tag, but they all define it in a way that makes all sets functionally identical in the application of the rule.

[Richvee]

 

8 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

No, it does not apply. 

This is a tag (of a base.) For a tag to be valid, a fielder must have secure possession of the ball during and through the act of completing the tag. After that, it does not matter if possession is maintained or how it is lost.

Now, in your situation, I'd be incredulous that the fielder had secure possession of the ball if it popped out without any external force (which is a matter of judgment.)

Maybe I’m mis remembering. Didn’t NCAA have a video with a pitcher covering , tagging the bag, then tripping and falling and falling and losing possession of the ball? And NCAA’s ruling was he didn’t maintain possession through the play and the runner should be called safe? 

[orangebird]

Yeah I'm fully expecting to learn this is a play where MLB, NCAA, HS and LL have 4 different answers somehow lol

[SeeingEyeDog]

This is juicy...I've talked about this kind of play locally and I have gotten LOTS of rulings and interpretations but, ironically...never any citations. If anyone has a citation on this (preferably FED but...all codes is fine, too), please post.

~Dawg

[orangebird]

17 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

Now, in your situation, I'd be incredulous that the fielder had secure possession of the ball if it popped out without any external force (which is a matter of judgment.)

Yeah just to make it more plausible: steps on first, instantly trips over himself, ball pops out 

[Richvee]

Here. 

[Replacematt]

6 hours ago, Richvee said:

Here. 

The thing is that the NCAA rule doesn't require voluntary release--it says that voluntary release proves that the elements of a tag existed.

[jimurrayalterego]

7 hours ago, Replacematt said:

The thing is that the NCAA rule doesn't require voluntary release--it says that voluntary release proves that the elements of a tag existed.

I think it was Bruns or Paronto who ruled, back when they used Arbiter, that it was not a tag when after touching 1B the fielder tripped and fell, the ball coming out upon contact with the ground. I think that is the play @Richvee is remembering.