High School - Gorilla arm Balk question

[Go Panthers]

Good evening…Our son almost 15 is a JV pitcher who has been moved up to V during the season for 2 games.  He was starting pitching tonight vs very tough team.  With a runner on 1st, the infield umpire called a balk when our son prior to being set in his pre set ritual holds the ball in his pitching hand and “pendulums” it back and forth at most 3”.  There was no warning.  it’s not really a “gorilla arm” because he’s standing up straight and is still not in a set position (after getting the pitch read from coach…his right foot is on the rubber but his feet are not together and also before bringing his hands together for set. Subsequently the IU called balk two more times for a total of two runs scoring.   No one has ever even questioned it (for years). All parents and coaches were flummoxed.  Head coach said after game the IU called it because he said the ball was in his pitching hand and was moving back & forth. Not sure how to load images or video.   Mike D. Central NC

[Replacematt]

Well, here's the bad news...we don't need images or video, because by your own description, this is a balk (in NFHS, which high school uses, only.)

The swinging is considered a start/stop balk. Once he starts moving that arm while in the stretch, he has to come set without interruption. If he keeps his arm still, he's fine.

It likely hasn't been questioned because it's not a balk anywhere else (the swinging part.) All sets require coming set in one uninterrupted motion; however, everywhere else does not consider this the start of said motion.

[jimurrayalterego]

22 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

Well, here's the bad news...we don't need images or video, because by your own description, this is a balk (in NFHS, which high school uses, only.)

The swinging is considered a start/stop balk. Once he starts moving that arm while in the stretch, he has to come set without interruption. If he keeps his arm still, he's fine.

It likely hasn't been questioned because it's not a balk anywhere else (the swinging part.) All sets require coming set in one uninterrupted motion; however, everywhere else does not consider this the start of said motion.

If the umpire allows a swinging arm without the ball in pitching hand he is not applying the stupid NFHS interp correctly. Whether or not the ball is in the pitching hand, if you are going to mindlessly enforce the NFHS interp, a moving arm hanging is illegal. A moving arm with the hand going to the mouth is the start of a pitch and a balk. A moving arm with a hand coming up to adjust a hat or arm sleeve is not the start of coming set. In the past NFHS did not even allow a hanging arm without swing as the arm was not "at his side". But they recognized that MLB, NCAA allowed the arm to hang and swing so they went along with the hang but kept the swinging as illegal and wrote the current interp. 

If you accept the start-stop rationale then the ump should also not allow a swinging arm without the ball.

While an NFHS interp says this is a balk, their rule does not specifically say that this is a violation and in my neck of the woods NFHS umpires call it like the other codes.

But you are going to encounter mindless, or well meaning poorly trained, or well meaning improperly trained umps throughout the next years. Once they call something stupid, don't do the thing again that they will stupidly call.

[Go Panthers]

Thank you gentlemen. Muddy waters for sure. Both responses are in line with our conclusions. Unclear. But when an ump doesn’t like something…you have to understand it and stop doing it. Right or wrong the only opinions that matters (in the moment in the game) is the umps’. Baseball imitating life..life imitating baseball.


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[Velho]

10 minutes ago, Go Panthers said:

But when an ump doesn’t like something…you have to understand it and stop doing it. Right or wrong the only opinions that matters (in the moment in the game) is the umps’. Baseball imitating life..life imitating baseball.

As an aside, your approach is great.

What I love about baseball is the life lessons it teaches. In this example it was that right or wrong, the call was made. You adjust in the moment, and then have a reasoned conversation afterwards. Wish more folks were like that. Appreciate you.

Best of luck to your son.

[noumpere]

For the OP:  Here are a couple of NFHS interps:

 

SITUATION 1: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand hanging straight down in front of his body, stationary, as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: The use of the “gorilla” stance in the set position is legal provided the arm is not moving. The batter, runner(s) on base, and coaches are able to view the pitcher and the ball and are not placed at a disadvantage. (6-1-3)

SITUATION 2: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand hanging straight down in front of his body, swinging back and forth, as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: This is not legal and is an illegal pitch or a balk if there are runners on base. While this “gorilla” stance is legal if the pitching hand is stationary, it is illegal if the arm is swinging back and forth. (6-1-3)
 

[BLWizzRanger]

The horrific part of this is that if he pitches and comes set the same way with the swinging arm for the rest of the season, you've got a better than average chance that it won't be called.

[Go Panthers]

39 minutes ago, noumpere said:

For the OP:  Here are a couple of NFHS interps:

 

SITUATION 1: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand hanging straight down in front of his body, stationary, as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: The use of the “gorilla” stance in the set position is legal provided the arm is not moving. The batter, runner(s) on base, and coaches are able to view the pitcher and the ball and are not placed at a disadvantage. (6-1-3)

SITUATION 2: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand hanging straight down in front of his body, swinging back and forth, as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: This is not legal and is an illegal pitch or a balk if there are runners on base. While this “gorilla” stance is legal if the pitching hand is stationary, it is illegal if the arm is swinging back and forth. (6-1-3)
 

His foot was on the rubber but he was not “set” at least historically.  That’s where we are confused.  So is the issue being on the rubber now considered to be “set”?  Even though his other foot & hands aren’t set?  Either way he’s breaking the habit/ritual.  We won the game despite 2 balked runs.  

[jimurrayalterego]

1 minute ago, Go Panthers said:

His foot was on the rubber but he was not “set” at least historically.  That’s where we are confused.  So is the issue being on the rubber now considered to be “set”?  Even though his other foot & hands aren’t set?  Either way he’s breaking the habit/ritual.  We won the game despite 2 balked runs.  

The “set position” refers to all of the criteria for pitching from the set. Starting with a parallel pivot foot, arm at side, coming set, etc. It’s mistakenly called pitching from the stretch. 

[jimurrayalterego]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

For the OP:  Here are a couple of NFHS interps:

 

SITUATION 1: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand hanging straight down in front of his body, stationary, as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: The use of the “gorilla” stance in the set position is legal provided the arm is not moving. The batter, runner(s) on base, and coaches are able to view the pitcher and the ball and are not placed at a disadvantage. (6-1-3)

SITUATION 2: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand hanging straight down in front of his body, swinging back and forth, as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: This is not legal and is an illegal pitch or a balk if there are runners on base. While this “gorilla” stance is legal if the pitching hand is stationary, it is illegal if the arm is swinging back and forth. (6-1-3)
 

When you cite Interps the year makes a difference. The above is from 2010 when FED backed off their 2005 interp:

"SITUATION 5: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand down in front of his body, swinging slowly as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: The use of this “gorilla” stance in the set position is illegal. A pitcher, for the set position, shall have his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back. (6-1-3)"

But Caseplay 6.1.3.Q showed up sometime and reenforces @Replacematt's explanation of the rationale of the swing as starting to come set. Except FED confuses the issue by calling it the start of the pitching motion and a pitch must be delivered. How you deliver a pitch before stretching to a stop I don't know. But if you experienced the vagaries of FED thinking on this issue over the years you won't blame umps for ignoring the gorilla arm and allowing it as other codes do.

"6.1.3 SITUATION Q: With a runner on first, Team A right-handed pitcher is in the set position, bent at the waist and his pitching arm naturally hangs down slightly in front or to the side away from his body. As he looks to the catcher for a signal, a) the pitcher’s arm is stationary or b) the pitching arm rocks slightly from side to side. RULING: In a), the position of the arm is natural and can be considered by his side in meeting the rule. Any movement would then start the pitch. In b), any movement of the arm is considered the start of the pitching motion and a pitch must be delivered to the plate so this motion results in a balk.