Automatic Out for Injured Player

[BaseballJohn]

PG youth tournament under NFHS rules.

Team is batting 9 and has no subs.  One of their players is injured running the bases and cannot continue.  When the injured player's spot (2 hole) in the batting order comes to bat it's an automatic out per 4-1-1(g) note 1.

Question: Does the umpire have to be notified immediately after the 1 hole completes his AB and before the 3 hole steps in the box for the automatic out to be enforced?   

My understanding of the rules is that the timing does not matter, as this is not a batting out of order violation. 

[beerguy55]

6 hours ago, BaseballJohn said:

My understanding of the rules is that the timing does not matter, as this is not a batting out of order violation.

The timing does matter - the question is really what the timing needs to be, whose obligation is it, and what's the penalty if missed?

It should be some point before the first pitch is thrown.

The timing matters, because umpires need to know the number of outs by that first pitch, so they know their obligations. (eg. with two outs they're not so worried about runners leaving early...or double plays...)

As a matter of logistics, I believe the official scorekeeper should be informing the ump immediately.

As a matter of practicality, the defense is going to want to inform the ump immediately - why risk losing a free out?

As a matter of practicality, the offense is going to especially want to know if there are one out or two if there are runners on base.

 

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

As a matter of practicality, the offense is going to especially want to know if there are one out or two if there are runners on base.

Which is balanced by offense trying to pull a fast one if they can go with it unnoticed (Had this exact conversation the other day as I almost had this situation*. There's an argument that, like BOO, if you get to the third batter (Charlie if injured is Abel) the out is no longer enforceable).

My takeaway was, as PU, I'm going to be proactive about knowing when that injured player's turn at bat is being skipped.

* Fortunately, the league rule was skip the battler w/out penalty so it was moot

[BaseballJohn]

15 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The timing does matter - the question is really what the timing needs to be, whose obligation is it, and what's the penalty if missed?

 

 

This is the million dollar question.  Obviously the scorekeeper should bring the automatic out to the attention of the umpire immediately when the injured player's spot in the lineup comes up.  However, when they fail to do so, I see nothing in the NFHS rulebook which suggest that the automatic out is no longer enforceable.  

[beerguy55]

15 hours ago, Velho said:

Which is balanced by offense trying to pull a fast one if they can go with it unnoticed

Though this is definitely the most likely scenario, don't rule out a simple mistake.  Batter/coach forgets at the moment...offense genuinely believes there's no penalty...other runners/teammates don't realize the spot in the order...etc, etc. 

15 hours ago, Velho said:

There's an argument that, like BOO, if you get to the third batter (Charlie if injured is Abel) the out is no longer enforceable).

The funny thing is, if you treat it like MYTAB, then it's a (sort of) wash until it gets to the (in this case) the fourth batter.

A gets on base

B should be auto out

C bats, nobody announces B's auto out, there are three possible outcomes

• C hasn't completed the at bat, someone remembers, B "takes their at bat", is declared automatically out, and C's at bat continues
• C completes at bat, defense appeals...B is ruled out for "missing their turn" (ie. not being announced), C has to bat again.  (great if C got a hit, SH*#ty if he got out)
• If D takes a pitch, continue on.

15 minutes ago, BaseballJohn said:

However, when they fail to do so, I see nothing in the NFHS rulebook which suggest that the automatic out is no longer enforceable.  

I would say it would have to be treated like MYTAB, or some hybrid of it.  The Defense is the team that has the ultimate responsibility.  Practically speaking, what do you do if someone notices four batters later?  Or the next inning?  At some point it has to be too late, and I would suggest that point is when "Otto Out" +2 takes their first pitch....at the very latest.  I'm not opposed to it being before "Otto Out" +1 takes their first pitch...it's the cleanest solution.

[BLarson]

I would say 99% of the time in select (travel) baseball, teams bat their entire lineup.

On non-tournament games, when coaches ask we do with that spot, I explain that it's an automatic out, but since it's a friendly game both coaches can agree to skip that batter.

In tournaments, we obviously just take an out in that spot.

Again...very rarely do teams have subs.

[beerguy55]

22 minutes ago, BLarson said:

I would say 99% of the time in select (travel) baseball, teams bat their entire lineup.

On non-tournament games, when coaches ask we do with that spot, I explain that it's an automatic out, but since it's a friendly game both coaches can agree to skip that batter.

In tournaments, we obviously just take an out in that spot.

Again...very rarely do teams have subs.

This is all very nice.  Doesn't answer the question at all, but still very nice.

[Richvee]

 As the umpire, you should have at least noticed prior to the missed AB they’re playing with 8 in the field, even if you weren’t informed. At that point I’m asking the manager of the team with 8 if they plan on batting only 8 (FED. Technically the injured player could re enter if he was a starter and bat). Then I’m making sure the official scorer and opposing manager  knows there’s an open spot, and asking them to remind me when that spot comes up. 

[beerguy55]

18 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Then I’m making sure the official scorer and opposing manager  knows there’s an open spot, and asking them to remind me when that spot comes up. 

What happens when they forget?  What is the point of no return to get the auto out, or is there one?

[Richvee]

8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

What happens when they forget?  What is the point of no return to get the auto out, or is there one?

I'm sure there's nothing in writing. I'd probably try to apply common sense. It would be situational dependent. Anything after a pitch or play where the number of outs may affect any decision, I'd say that's too late. 

Note...Any type of game where the PU has the lineups, this should be on him. Just note the number of the batter who bats prior to the empty spot. In PG, or other tourneys where the official scorer has lineups, it's more on him and the coach of the tem who wants the out.