Is voluntary release required on the catch of a THROWN ball to record a force out?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Pardon my ignorance and pardon me if I am repeating myself as I have discussed the following with many umpires and I can't recall if I posted this here previously...

Ground ball to F6, fielded and thrown to 1B. The throw is high. F3 keeps his foot on the bag and catches and secures the ball way above his head. There is MORE THAN a moment where he has BOTH absolute secure possession AND his foot is absolutely on the bag. His momentum carries him towards foul territory, he falls, his foot comes off the bag, he hits the ground...and the ball is now loose on the ground. The batter/runner then touches 1B.

What do you have and why do you have it, please brothers? Please provide citations to include variances across codes, if necessary...

~Dawg 

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Pardon my ignorance and pardon me if I am repeating myself as I have discussed the following with many umpires and I can't recall if I posted this here previously...

Ground ball to F6, fielded and thrown to 1B. The throw is high. F3 keeps his foot on the bag and catches and secures the ball way above his head. There is MORE THAN a moment where he has BOTH absolute secure possession AND his foot is absolutely on the bag. His momentum carries him towards foul territory, he falls, his foot comes off the bag, he hits the ground...and the ball is now loose on the ground. The batter/runner then touches 1B.

What do you have and why do you have it, please brothers? Please provide citations to include variances across codes, if necessary...

~Dawg 

I have secure possession and an out except for NCAA. I'm not doing your homework for you.

[SeeingEyeDog]

13 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I have secure possession and an out except for NCAA. I'm not doing your homework for you.

Thank you. This is helpful.

~Dawg

[The Short Umpire]

On 9/11/2024 at 9:00 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Pardon my ignorance and pardon me if I am repeating myself as I have discussed the following with many umpires and I can't recall if I posted this here previously...

Ground ball to F6, fielded and thrown to 1B. The throw is high. F3 keeps his foot on the bag and catches and secures the ball way above his head. There is MORE THAN a moment where he has BOTH absolute secure possession AND his foot is absolutely on the bag. His momentum carries him towards foul territory, he falls, his foot comes off the bag, he hits the ground...and the ball is now loose on the ground. The batter/runner then touches 1B.

What do you have and why do you have it, please brothers? Please provide citations to include variances across codes, if necessary...

~Dawg 

Personally I don’t think this is an out. Just read the definition of “Catch” and “Tag” in the rulebook.  
 

Tag- “ It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously
or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball.”

[The Man in Blue]

If it was all one motion, I would be inclined to say no catch.  

If the jump/stretch/fall/whatever was part of the motion to catch, I want to see control all the way through. Primarily, I want to see a secondary action that indicates the catch is over.

In the end, HTBT.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

If it was all one motion, I would be inclined to say no catch.  

If the jump/stretch/fall/whatever was part of the motion to catch, I want to see control all the way through. Primarily, I want to see a secondary action that indicates the catch is over.

In the end, HTBT.

There is no “ catch” of a throw. NCAA wants the throw secured throughout the tag and body motion afterward and mentions “voluntary release”. The other codes want only secure possession during the tag and have interps that would have an out for the OP and other opinions that would have the OP safe. Note the “simultaneous or immediate” criteria for dropping the ball in @the short umpire’s cite. 

[maven]

On 9/11/2024 at 11:00 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

There is MORE THAN a moment where he has BOTH absolute secure possession AND his foot is absolutely on the bag. His momentum carries him towards foul territory, he falls, his foot comes off the bag, he hits the ground...and the ball is now loose on the ground. The batter/runner then touches 1B.

This is a tag in all codes except NCAA, which explicitly requires 'voluntary release' for a TAG as well as a CATCH (of a batted ball). In all other codes, secure possession + touch ahead of the runner is sufficient to record a force out or out at 1B on the BR.

The OBR reference to "simultaneously or immediately" is supposed to provide a guideline for "secure possession" in the definition of TAG. Secure possession is stipulated in the OP. Thus, it's a TAG.

[The Man in Blue]

On 9/22/2024 at 4:31 PM, Jimurray said:

There is no “ catch” of a throw. NCAA wants the throw secured throughout the tag and body motion afterward and mentions “voluntary release”. The other codes want only secure possession during the tag and have interps that would have an out for the OP and other opinions that would have the OP safe. Note the “simultaneous or immediate” criteria for dropping the ball in @the short umpire’s cite. 

Sorry, deflection.