"If there had been no obstruction", it would have been 2 runners on the same base. What then?

[Velho]

Had this play today in LL (which is OBR):

R1 in rundown between 3B & 2B. OBS by F6 as R1 is heading back to 2B. BR was charging hard to 2B and 5-10 feet away as OBS happened.

R1 awarded 3B as next base since type A. Fine.

What does BR get? per rule "all runners shall advance, without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire’s judgment, if there had been no obstruction".

Without OBS, R1 and BR would have both been standing on 2B. (and if no OBS was called, R1 was tagged out and BR would have been safe on 2B. Don't think that matters but to maybe it help give context of the play).

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Without OBS, R1 and BR would have both been standing on 2B.

We can’t say that. 

Because even if R1 was returned back to 2B devoid of OBS (missed tag, let’s say) safely, despite BR “hard charging” to 2B, who’s to say that he doesn’t throw on the brakes, and try to return to 1B… potentially starting another rundown between 2B and 1B? 

We can’t spoil the game with an endless buffet of “What if’s?”; we can only call what we see occurring, and what it has the “immediate potential” to become. 

Now, at that level, so as to place/award “secondary” runners (auxiliary to those directly addressed by a ruling), I would consider what kind of hit it was… was it a simple infield hit? Was it a single to the outfield, in front of an outfielder, and R1 got “caught” rounding 2B? Or was this a potential gap-shot, and R1 aborted going to 3B because the ball was thrown in advance of him at 3B (to F5)? 🤔 

I think you could be justified either way. Certainly, BR’s close proximity to 2B doesn’t entitle him to that base, but it doesn’t prevent or prohibit him from the scurrying “to the empty chair when the music ends”. 

Where was he when you called “Time!”?

[Velho]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Where was he when you called “Time!”?

He was short of 2B.

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

I would consider what kind of hit it was… was it a simple infield hit?

I simplified for presentation. Full details: it was R1, R2, fly out to F8. R2 and R1 both tagged up and tried to advance (this is 12s AS, not sure why they tried but they did).

I was momentarily flummoxed* where to send him since he hadn't achieved 2B at "Time!" but did come big with him back to 1B and the OBS runner to 3B. Crew huddled and agreed I was right on 1B*

 

* Both for different reasons that I'll keep to myself and our 4 man crew. What happens in [not] Vegas stays in [not] Vegas

[MadMax]

16 minutes ago, Velho said:

I simplified for presentation. Full details: it was R1, R2, fly out to F8. R2 and R1 both tagged up

 

3 hours ago, Velho said:

R1 in rundown between 3B & 2B. OBS by F6 as R1 is heading back to 2B. BR was charging hard to 2B

These are two entirely different plays, and entirely different situations. 

If this was a double tag(-up), then you are perfectly justified in awarding R2 to 3B, and placing R1 (still) on 1B. 

[Tborze]

Does LL use A or B type for OBS?  

[Velho]

49 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Does LL use A or B type for OBS?  

Yes. 😁

It's same as OBR. There are separate rules for both.

6.01(h)

[Tborze]

22 hours ago, Velho said:

Yes. 😁

It's same as OBR. There are separate rules for both.

6.01(h)

OBR is type 1 or 2  

[Velho]

On 6/30/2024 at 8:27 AM, Tborze said:

Does LL use A or B type for OBS?  

57 minutes ago, Tborze said:

OBR is type 1 or 2  

Can you help me understand the difference? I've always heard Type 1 used interchangeably with Type A and 2 interchangeably with B

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, Velho said:

Can you help me understand the difference? I've always heard Type 1 used interchangeably with Type A and 2 interchangeably with B

There is no difference. OBR changed from A and B to 1 and 2 in 2015 when they changed the format of their rules. LL did not change.